We Are Human Beings, Not Human Doings: Leading from the Inside Out with Special Guest Patrick Tam

Speaker 1 Hello, masterful listener. Welcome back or welcome. It is March 31st, 2025, as long as I get it posted tonight, and I'm gonna do it. This is a very special episode. It is one that I recorded with my very special guest, Patrick Tam, who I will introduce in a moment. Uh, we recorded it about a month ago, a little less than a month ago. And it has taken me a while to get this posted. And I want to tie it into the topic because here's the thing. I think in our world today, it's very easy to forget that we are human beings and not human doings. And

Speaker 1 the human doing in me wanted to do the sound well. I wanted it to be perfect. Of course, I got all this gear and something I'm learning. And by the way, if you hear Mello the dog barking, it's because he is, there must be a coyote or something outside. So he's doing his amazing guard dog thing. And I'm gonna record this anyway, because what have I learned from even the delay of this episode? That sometimes you just gotta keep being the being, even if the doing isn't doing. What do I mean by that? When I re-listened to our recording, as I listened to every episode, I

Speaker 1 didn't like how the sound picked up. Uh, you know, listen, uh creating a podcast is like a whole thing. I produced this whole show. I've been learning about all kinds of aspects of it. And I had a producer in season one, and then I took it over. I really wanted to learn. And let me tell you, managing the technical side of things is nowhere near as fun, nor is it my genius. I think that is more in the storytelling, in the in this, this part, right? But I wanted the show to sound great and it didn't, and it bugged me. And I was trying to work

Speaker 1 on it and working on it, and then I just realized, you know what? The message is there. It's freaking awesome. I love my guest Patrick. I'm gonna introduce him right now. So I just want to say in advance that if the audio is a little bit weird sometimes, uh, just notice what that's like. You know, things in life don't always go the way we planned. Things in life don't always sound the way I'd like them to. I don't know about you, but there's a lot of noise out there, there's a lot of distraction out there. It's really, really easy to get caught in doing things perfectly.

Speaker 1 And then we lose track of the humanity behind them. And so you will see our conversation is packed with so much humanity. I love this guest. He's one of my favorite humans. He's someone I've had the chance and the privilege of working with uh as a client, as a coaching client for many, many years. And uh I'm just so excited to share this conversation that we had uh covering so many topics with all of you. So, who is my guest? His name is Patrick Tam. He's the vice president of operational excellence at ServiceNow. So, in this role, Patrick is responsible for driving enterprise-wide operational performance and

Speaker 1 delivery of corporate programs. Prior to ServiceNow, Patrick held various executive roles at Cisco, including leading corporate planning and corporate transformation. Patrick is also a professor of operations management at San Jose State University and has authored and illustrated a children's book on finding happiness. And I have the book and it's fabulous, and I will link it here in the episode. Patrick is very passionate about living every day to its fullest with his family, his friends, and his colleagues. And again, it is such an honor. It is such a pleasure. Thank you, Patrick, for your patience in me getting this show together. And I think I am going

Speaker 1 to be putting out feelers for a new producer. Because I don't love doing this part of the show, but I sure do love that I have a platform now where I get to share conversations like these. This conversation is super, super important, whether you are in the business world or not. If you're a human being, you will, I believe, find something here. Uh we are both two individuals who care a lot, I feel, about humanity. And specifically in the business world right now, I think, and I see this all the time as a facilitator, as someone who is constantly leading and coaching gosh, I mean thousands

Speaker 1 and thousands of people at this point. How often we forget that we are human beings, not human doings. And I think that's a very important message in the world that we're in to just remind us all of that. No matter what you do, no matter what your job title is, it doesn't matter. Remember that the doing matters, but the being also really matters like a lot. Like a lot. Okay, so we're gonna dive in. Enjoy this incredible conversation. I hope if you hear mellow barking, you're just laughing. Because you know, sometimes it don't go the way you thought, but you know what? It might just be

Speaker 1 a really awesome detour. Welcome back, masterful listener. I'm excited for you to be here.

Speaker 1 Patrick Tam, are you with me?

Speaker 2 I'm with you.

Speaker 1 Yes, okay. Uh, welcome back to Masterful Listening, everyone. I'm so excited. Today's a very special day. It's Friday. It's Friday, the 20th of February.

Speaker 3 21st.

Speaker 1 21st. There we go. Always nice to know what day of the week it is. That's a good place to start. So I have such a special guest today. Um, I we were just recording a couple of minutes ago, and then the tech did its tech thing, and we got a little uh interrupted for a moment. But what I was saying, we were chuckling, uh, was that I feel like I've been asking Patrick, or we've been going back and forth for a long time about coming on the show. And now I'm just so glad the day's here. So again, thank you for making the time in your

Speaker 1 life and your schedule to come and share your wisdom.

Speaker 4 Wisdom, yeah. Maybe thoughts, maybe thoughts.

Speaker 5 That's what I love about you. Oh my god.

Speaker 6 Wisdom's a high bar.

Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I I think a true wise person like you is humble. Uh, and I really, I really do appreciate that about you. So um, I when I stitched the show together, I would have already given your bio. So the the audience at this point, and by the way, welcome back, masterful listener. I'm very grateful you're here. I think this is episode either 55 or 56. I don't remember because I'm one behind and posting it. But the point is uh why that's important is it's exciting to see that this dream that I had for a long time is living, is continuing to exist. And my vision

Speaker 1 was always to just have a place to uh discuss this skill that I think we don't learn, which is the listening skill, right? We're taught how to read, write, speak. Uh we don't really learn how to listen. And in my exploration of leadership and what it means to really be just not just a great human being, but a great leader, I think listening is so fundamental. And so, Patrick, to me, you are, I've told you this before, but I just feel like you are one of the best leaders that I've ever met in my whole career doing the work I've done as an executive coach and

Speaker 1 beyond. So I just want you to tell the audience what what do you want the listener to know about you from just from your mouth before we even get started?

Speaker 4 Well, thank you. Thanks, Satsala, for this uh this opportunity. Um I mean, one one thing I think a lot about in terms of just you know how I live my life, and it's taken a long time, a lot of kind of self-introspection to get here is um to to keep myself grounded, that I am a human being, um, not just a human doing a human doing stuff all the time. Because I think based on my kind of upbringing and my background and uh a lot of my ethos, a lot of my reputation is about doing, executing. Um that's kind of my my brand at work, and

Speaker 4 and I do a lot of things for my family. Um at the same time, though, I think in order for one to be really successful and optimal and actually healthy inside, you have to you have to be. You just have to be a human being. And that encounters, you know, encompasses a whole number of things that I think we'll we'll talk through, be it uh having the time and space to listen to others and also yourself, um your ability to slow down and pause to reflect so that you can actually be and just be and be good with that, be good with who you are right

Speaker 4 now, what you're experiencing right now. Um, and I think when you can kind of have that space for yourself and be that human being, then you ultimately uh actually you become a better human doing.

Speaker 1 So well said. Where'd you hear that human being versus human doing thing? That's cool.

Speaker 4 That's cool. Might have been in one of our conversations, I think.

Speaker 1 But you know, but that's so good. I remember when I heard that in a lead in I don't even know where I heard that. I heard that so long ago, but it stuck with me and I've repeated it so many times that I feel like that we are human beings, not human doings. Honestly, at this point, I think where that really came from is co-active coaching, the type of coaching that I was trained in. Coactive is stands for the coactive, the being and the doing. Often, even with coaching, people think, oh, it's about getting it done, the goal. Yes. And what about the being? Do you

Speaker 1 remember the first thing you said to me in our uh one of our first coaching sessions? And by the way, for the audience, Patrick and I met many, many years ago. He was a student in one of my uh classes that I taught for a company called Hone. And after that, we started working together one-on-one. And in one of our first sessions, you said something to me that I still remember is one of my favorite things that anyone ever said when I asked you about what is your goal. Do you remember?

Speaker 4 Uh, I think uh being a super dad.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's the end game. One of my end games, yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I loved. Can you say more? What does that mean? Because that was a surprising thing. You know, here you are, a super high-level executive at a tech company. Like I just wasn't expecting that that was gonna come out of your mouth. And I so loved that that's what the goal was.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that that um that is uh that is, I mean, that is a primary goal of of mine, and probably, yeah, I'd say is is my number goal, number one goal. It's it's something that I think, you know, just being the age I am and my kids are quite big now. Um, my daughter is about to go off to college in in August this year. My son is uh 16 years old. So I think through that journey of you know raising the kids and balancing life and work and uh my spouse and family and everything like that, I guess my my net net when we first

Speaker 4 met was like I I want to be that super dad. And that's that's kind of the ultimate objective. And how can I actually be the best I can be in order to support my kids and also my wife the best way I can possibly do it. So with that kind of mantra in mind, in terms of like um, would a super dad go to practice, or would a super dad be there uh for the game, would a super dad be there in the evenings to help with homework, or would a super dad, you know, drop everything when your kids come home and they all they need

Speaker 4 is a hug? Um that's what I tried to do um day in and day out. Uh yeah. So um at the same time, I think as part of a super dad, it's it's also uh setting a good example of worth work ethic and trying to do your best every day so they know they see that I'm working really hard in my craft, be it at um the company I work for or the university I teach at, all those things I think creates the hopefully the example, the presence, um

Speaker 4 something that they can look up to.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm not the boss of the universe, or maybe I am, but I just want to say, or I'm not in charge, you are a super, like you don't try, you do it. I've like you, you're just I I'm I'm such a fan of you, and you're so humble. You say you try. Like, I got a chance to speak to your daughter recently, and she's just so lovely. So shout out to uh your daughter. I don't know if I want to say names because I don't know how private you are as a person, but I'm just saying you seem like you are achieving that goal, is

Speaker 1 the point. And and it's such a beautiful thing. It's one of the reasons I love being a coach, is actually seeing people embody these beautiful ways of being is so lovely. It's just so fulfilling. And it's not like anyone's perfect. I don't know if anyone ever does anything perfectly all the time, but it was so rare. I didn't see many people, honestly. And I've worked with a lot of people at this point. And that's not to say there aren't more people out there. I actually think that you've shown me that there are more people out there than I maybe even thought that want to connect to

Speaker 1 their values and live in a certain way. So the super dad, I always remember that. So tell me, what else do you remember? I want to talk a little bit about coaching because again, I for me, this is a special relationship because technically I was your coach and I feel like I learned so much from you as well. So that's something about coaching that I really love. And I'm sure as a leader, like tell the audience a little bit about what you do, maybe more in depth and what kind of work you do, perhaps, and how coaching has shown up in your own life.

Speaker 4 Sure. Um, yeah, uh right now I work at an enterprise software company called Service Now. Um I'm the vice president of operational excellence. And um I've been at that company for about five and a half years now. Uh prior to that, I was at Cisco Systems for almost 20 years. And on the side, my night, night hustle is uh I I teach uh a class, a few classes at San Jose State University. And night hustle?

Speaker 5 You're so funny.

Speaker 4 Night hustle, yes, yes. Um so that's that's what I do. And I guess you know, when when I think about just to me, like coaching is something um um is just like a a means of self-improvement and something where uh every day you you you try to make the most of it. Um so I've always appreciated uh your help and your guidance and your wisdom that um I've uh I've had when when we were working together directly, and now I just listen to your podcast to get some nuggets of wisdom or anything else that you learn every single day, be it from your kids or your

Speaker 4 friends or your coworkers, I think all of that is opportunity um uh for coaching and for self-improvement. Um so that's kind of my my mindset. And I guess related to what what I do at work is um I lead um enterprise operational excellence for ServiceNow, one of the top three uh largest software companies in the world. Uh we're the fastest uh software company in the world to get to a billion dollars, five billion dollars, ten billion dollars, the fastest in in history. So it is a a rocket ship that we are in.

Speaker 1 Um so wait, are you saying that you're driving the rocket ship?

Speaker 4 Is that kind of another member of this rocket ship? You're a member.

Speaker 5 Okay, okay, cool.

Speaker 4 I'm one of many with all the ServiceNow folks that are out there, one of many who are working tirelessly to uh to make our dream happen. And that starts from the CEO all the way to every single employee we are pushing, pushing really hard. But one thing is part of my role and what what I do um focus on and support the company and drive is this concept of operational excellence, which is uh your ability to basically improve operat leverage or you know, improve the state of the business. And that's something that in in the business world, it's like how can you accelerate revenue, get money

Speaker 4 faster into the company, how can you decrease costs, and how can you be more productive? So it's interesting when when you ask me like parallels to like my work is when I think about my work and then myself, is it's all kind of the same thing. It's like when I think about even my own life, I basically apply, well, I guess I apply what I how I operate my life to my work and my work to my life, is how how can we just live a very efficient life? How can we um bring in the the quote unquote revenue, but bring in the the love, the

Speaker 4 outcomes, the the joy uh into your life? How can you you know optimize the cost in your life, maybe optimizing the time you spend? How can you be more productive in your own life and making sure that you know the time you spent, the investments that you put in your time is generating the returns and value and joy and happiness that you seek? Um so that's I mean, those are some parallels that I think.

Speaker 1 I love that. Those are just such great questions, right? It's uh it's another thing you and I, I think have, I'm sure, talked about, or if not, you've probably heard me say, ask great questions, get great answers, and ask crappy questions, ruin your life. Have you have you listened to that one? But really, think about it. It's like those questions, right? The questions that we ask. So many people are so obsessed with the right answers. And yet the question of you said the way you I was so listening to you that I can't even fully re reflect it back. But the way you work is the

Speaker 1 way you live, the way you live is the way you work, something like that. Kind of like you're you seem, you are, to me, in my experience, an extremely authentic person. Like I feel it, right? And it's something you can't fake authenticity. That's the thing. And authenticity is like the highest vibration that has been proven of anything, right? And I think that's, I'm assuming, why you must be very, I just imagine people really love you as a leader. That's just my assumption, but also just based on, and again, we're not gonna go into more specifics, but from what I've understood from you and in working with

Speaker 1 you, the way that you lead is so filled with humanity. And I think that is what I'm seeing is so massively missing in the corporate world. And yet you are embodying that. And here you are at this huge tech company. And shout out to ServiceNow, you know, thank you for, I'm sure your whole team and all the people who you work with. I know I really appreciate how you're always like about the team, right? Because it takes how many? How many people even are at like how many people do you technically lead?

Speaker 4 Like, or or are you in charge of the the company size is 25,000. So we've grown quite quite quickly. When I first joined five and a half years ago, we were, I think I was employee 9,000 something. So we've we've more than doubled. We went from a $4 billion company when I started, and then now we are at a run rate of $12 billion. Um, so there's been massive growth, and I'd say uh my small but mighty team were focused on scaling out this idea of continuous improvement, um, operational excellence across the entire company. Uh, and we have the privilege to work on some of the

Speaker 4 uh mediest, juiciest, uh most impactful things. So we are we are very blessed.

Speaker 1 That sounds so exciting, and you say it so calmly. It makes me be like, what is It that you're doing more.

Speaker 1 Oh, just the meatiest and the juiciest of these, you know, incredible things that are making oh, just billions of dollars, no big deal. That's cool. Yeah. No, but I love that. It's it's it's it's cool when amazing work is done. And I think when people remember that there are human beings doing the work, it can help with the challenges that often come up in the corporate world as well, right? So, again, I don't know who exactly is going to be listening to the show. And by the way, let's just say hi to the listener for a minute. I didn't do my typical welcome spiel of how

Speaker 1 to listen. So we're gonna pause and do that. So, whoever is here, first of all, thank you so much for joining. This is, again, a really great opportunity to have a presence practice. What masterful listening really is all about for me, and I want Patrick, maybe you can tell the audience in a moment what it really means for you, is a chance to just get really present. So, like right now, wherever you are, hopefully you are present and you don't have anything else going on. Uh, but notice how often in our lives we are literally multitasking, which is such a myth. It is not effective. Uh,

Speaker 1 it's something I've spent many years as someone with ADHD, uh, thinking, oh, I'm gonna do all the different things all at the same time. And then I learned, well, okay, what does it look like to just focus on one thing at a time? What does it look like in a conversation to really be paying attention to someone's words, what they're saying, and even the energy behind the words versus waiting for your own turn to speak and interrupting, which I still do sometimes, by the way. So again, listener, I want you to pay attention today with a really open-minded lens, meaning I want you to just be

Speaker 1 fully here if you find yourself distracted, which you might come back. It's constantly a practice, right? Uh, like a meditation. Meditation isn't about you're gonna sit there and never have a thought that, you know, even the Buddha would probably say, got some thoughts coming in. It's more of when you notice you've lost, you know, the moment, you up as my alarm. See, that's a confirmation alarm from the divine coming through right now. That's a reminder. Also, put yourself in focus mode, right? I always say when I start teaching my classes, put yourself on do not disturb, turn off Slack, put off your email, put away your

Speaker 1 phone, take a moment, give yourself this time right now to be with me and Patrick and really listen, listen in a way that's going to serve you best. I think we're gonna, I don't know exactly what we're gonna go into. I think there's a lot of themes here, but I really invite you to consider what has your experience been in the business world, if you are in the business world, or maybe as a parent, or maybe as a person with um, or just a human being. I mean, that's the thing. We're all so much more similar than I believe we are taught that we are. That's

Speaker 1 another thing I think we might go into. And Patrick, uh, can you keep track of some of these thoughts that I'm having right now for me? Because I was like, I'm not even taking notes this time. I just wanted to really flow with you. Um, so I just wanted to address, say, listener, thank you again. This is uh really exciting. This is a brilliant guest. This is a person I really admire, and I I'm excited to learn more. And also we're gonna have fun because fun is fun. And do you like to have fun?

Speaker 3 Sure. Let's do it.

Speaker 1 What do you like to do for fun, by the way, Patrick?

Speaker 4 Um, it's interesting. My I guess my um maybe, maybe I'm a little boring, but my um I guess in in my free time, I I actually like to just uh reflect. Um I like to as I tell my kids kind of savor the flavor a bit um in life. Um you know, with when when moments come, or if I do have you know time to myself, then I honestly like to just take a walk by myself and just kind of think through things, savor the flavor of life and reflect like what are the new dreams that you know I have or can think of either for

Speaker 4 myself, my family, my kids, my wife, or my team at work, basically anything you care about, like kind of dream about that and then then think about like what what steps to get there, yeah, or you know, then eventually if you achieve that, then you think about like reflect upon like what's next and how to keep on going. And that's kind of my I guess my my usual mode in the morning, dream up what could be done. And then in the evening you go to bed, and I feel like a good day is a day where I go to bed and I do this every night.

Speaker 4 I go to bed, I sit put in like light on my pillow, and just I do I'm Catholic, so I do a sign of the cross and I think through okay, uh what I'm what I feel blessed about today, uh, what went well, um, and everything good or bad is is very much a blessing. And uh you think, well, I did the best I could do. All right, I'm content, I'm happy, I feel satisfied. Wake up the next day, do it again. And at every moment that I'm able to actually, I feel like every moment I'm able to actually wake up and I'm thinking, well, here

Speaker 4 we are. What a day! Let's do it, right? I mean, that is such a blessing. I it's like a super blessing that honestly, that you know, I'm even here with you talking, it's warm in this room, and then at night we we have the privilege, you know, hopefully, um, a lot of uh most of us have the privilege and and blessing and gift to be able to sleep in some kind of warm place, warm bed with shelter and have a blanket and just rest. I mean, that is such a such a blessing to me, and to be able to do that day in, day out. Like,

Speaker 4 why not every single day? Why not just like go for it? Just go for it as much as you can and uh you feel satisfied every single day. So that's how I kind of feel like you end up having the ability to kind of savor all that effort that you put in, all those, all those kind of realities that you manifested yourself, um the choices that you made in that day. Are you are are you proud of them? Are you satisfied with them?

Speaker 1 And if you can say yes to much of it, to me that's that is like the least boring thing I've ever heard. That's just the most, that's just the most beautiful, profound thing. And uh savor the flavor. You know how when we were doing our coaching, you'd write down notes and stuff. I just wrote down that's my sticky from you.

Speaker 3 Savor the flavor.

Speaker 1 It's so good. Oh my God. My mic is by the way, listener. Sorry, the mic might be really loud, but you're gonna have to just deal with it. Um savor the flavor. And also, I just wrote down that thing. You just said the question, why not just go for it? What a freaking beautiful question that is. Why not just go for it? Because a lot of people don't go for it in life, I find. And also, you are truly for me, the most um, I as you were speaking, you just have such a grateful, peaceful, calm energy of any Catholic person I've ever met. I just

Speaker 1 want to say it's amazing. And that's not a judgment of anything, that's just a lot of people who I know who come from a Catholic, well, how does it Catholic background? I'm Jewish. Uh, tech. So again, I'm a spiritual person. To me, I'm just fascinated with. I feel like I told you the other day that you and I, in I believe in reincarnation past lives, I feel like you and I have been philosophizing for many lifetimes. But um, you you just there's um something about your relationship to your faith that is so beautiful. And it reminds me so much about my relationship to my faith, even

Speaker 1 though we defin technically have different faiths, I guess. So that's another thing I'm so curious about. Would you just talk a little bit about that? Because it's just that just everything coming out of you, I just told you, I just feel like you're very Christ-like.

Speaker 4 Um so that's a compliment. Um, we all try to, I think, live our ways uh uh to be um uh uh you know follow the the teachings and uh philosophies of Christ, Jesus Christ. Um and uh that's something I think we we all kind of aspire to a bit. But I I I think these concepts are I think universal. Um like you were kind of mentioning, I think from any background, any any orientation. Um uh your your school of masterful listening, I think is is honestly it's it spans like any any discipline in life, honestly, and any discipline and religion. I think people in general, we

Speaker 4 need to slow it down, you know, be present, um be less judgmental. And when you think about like every religion that out is out there, it's it's you know it's about compassion and and and to be compassionate you have to have empathetic listening. Christianity, we we often say, you know, um don't judge, or you know, you know, or don't judge, or you'll also be judged, or um um Buddha would say like it's a it's a fool to um wise man knows that um knows himself to be a fool, uh which is which is good, right? I I think you know if you're smart, you know that

Speaker 4 you don't know everything. Um and I I think every single like religion kind of has that kind of has that kind of like uh belief. Um so I feel like it's really universal. Um in terms of like faith, I guess, and and how that relates to my own uh introspection is uh in a in a recent retreat that my wife and I uh went to at our uh local parish, we got we got um we were very blessed and fortunate to have uh Father Brendan, who was a who's a pastor in Los Gatos, who came to our church and he was there for three nights to

Speaker 4 actually present a few things. And and one of the things he he shared was um the concept of of uh suffering. And he said that um he said he positioned as suffering as something that softens you, it softens your heart. So don't look at suffering as something that is you know bad. Like you know, suffering is just um is actually something very needed and it's very important. And um he said suffering softens your heart, so that when you can imagine like a like a candlestick or something like that, it's softened by the warmth of the light. And if you have a soft heart, then that allows

Speaker 4 God to put his imprint onto your heart, and that you're more ready to accept it. Because if your heart was like steel or glass, if you think of a imprint, it's just gonna bounce off. So having a soft heart is I think really, really important. You kind of get that soft heart through the suffering that we have every single day. Um, you soften your heart by but by slowing down, being present with your loved ones, being present with yourself. And actually, to me, you you soften your heart a bit too, is when you actually give some space uh for God's grace to be with you or

Speaker 4 whatever you believe, you leave some space for that imprint. And that I think is really important as you think about yourself and your own end game, your own values, and how you want to um how you want to conduct yourself.

Speaker 1 Yeah, thank you. That's so beautiful. I would agree with that in my own experience of uh uh it's funny. I used to go, I've always been like you. I'm I like I reflect, that's all I do. I'm a philosopher, but I don't think it's boring. I'm like, ooh. It is fun, it's so funny. It's so fun. It's weird to me that everyone doesn't do that. I think as I was growing up, I just thought everybody, I just remember as a kid, I don't know how old I was, but I was still back in Maryland. Shout out to my parents who are definitely gonna listen to this

Speaker 1 because they always listen. They're learning how to listen. By the way, speaking. Hi parent, hi mama, FEMA. What's up?

Speaker 6 You have a great daughter.

Speaker 1 Aw, thank you. That's gonna, that's gonna make them smile. Um, I love them so much. And oh, that just made me so emotional. I can like, it's weird. I can feel them in the future listening to this. It's interesting how quantum, the quantum reality works. I've realized also that I'm a bit of a, I don't know if I'm a quantum physicist. I feel like I am quantum physics. I can't explain what's been happening recently in life. There's been so much magic, but I it connects to that suffering and the soft heart. I went through a big tragedy this year where I basically, I mean, I really

Speaker 1 thought I might never walk again uh when I lost my soul dog rat. And if you've been listening to the show, you might know. But if people haven't been, please check out the other episodes. But I essentially lost my soul dog very tragically, and then my whole body shut down. So I was handicapped for almost six months. And I there was just one moment that is so with me because I feel like something that night really, I don't know, almost like a switch flipped or something, but it was like the middle of the night, and I'd been in so much pain for so long. It was

Speaker 1 a bit of a medical mystery, medical miracle now. And I was literally crawling across the floor to the bathroom to try to get some ibuprofen because neither leg worked. I could actually I wasn't crawling, I was literally dragging myself across the floor because my knee was out, my ankle was out. And by the way, grief can absolutely do that. So that's the other thing that I'm very committed through this show, raising awareness around just grief, because I believe as a society, we don't honor grief. We don't honor how so many people are suffering. And I do believe through my own journey that pain is a portal

Speaker 1 to our power. And I believe now that moving at the pace of peace is that's like my legacy, what I want to be remembered for. I think Martin Luther King, I was just told, said something similar, but that came to me because my handicap, me getting slowed down, mean I couldn't walk, I couldn't even crawl. So in a moment where I was literally dragging myself to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and my whole body felt like it was on fire. Uh, the voice inside my head was saying, I love you. Keep going. I'm with you, I'm here. It was like the kindest, most

Speaker 1 loving. It was like I had discovered within me that very Christ-like, Buddha-like, God-like. I don't know how to, it's like that motherly, the cosmic mother. It was the most fiercely compassionate voice that I'd ever found within myself. And I'd been studying compassion. I went to Stanford the year before to do this incredible compassion program. But it in that moment, I realized, whoa, that I thought was like I won. It's not a competition, but in literally, because if in if in such a moment of pain that was the voice in my head, I think a former version of me would have been not that voice in my

Speaker 1 head. And I think something really happened to me. It was alchemized, and plus I healed my own body and I'm back and I can walk and I'm even dancing, and I actually haven't gone fully dancing yet. I'm still waiting for a very special moment. But I embraced, I might never walk again. Could I still be happy? And I remember that was a big breakdown because I was like, but I'm meant to be. I can't believe, but I thought, okay, it was like this ultimate surrender to the universe, to God, to something that I can't describe again. To me, my faith, it's hard to put into words

Speaker 1 sometimes, right? But what I just went through and bringing what my body went through, I started sending myself healing light. I mean, I really was told I had a doctor say he'd never seen something like this happen. And I said, just watch. I'm gonna do it because it was the love between me and Rad. Like love is so potent, and that is what I believe from studying Christianity, Judaism, Islam, like Buddhism. All of it comes down, I find, to just love and humanity. That's why I just love you so much because you just embody that so much and you do it in the corporate world. Like

Speaker 1 again, I met you through a business engagement. That's why this was so profound. And I think I want to be having more conversations so people could see that you could be this way. You could be a human being full of love in the corporate world and it could actually make you uh successful, like peaceful productivity, right? That's maybe another mantra you might have remembered from a long time ago. But like, so I just I wanted to thank you for that because you to me um just are another reminder of what I've been trying to express that I feel like is real and it's magic, or maybe

Speaker 1 it's not magic. I don't know. I'm gonna pause right now. I want to see what you gotta say to that.

Speaker 4 Um yeah, full fully agree. I I ful fully, fully agree. Um I think uh thanks for sharing that story, Tim. Just like invision, just I was like visualizing you crawling on the floor and like, oh man, I wish I could be there to like help, or like, you know, help be there to get get you what you need at at that moment. Um but that you know those are times where I think I mean it it really shapes you, it defines you. Uh one one thing that my kids are like super tired of me saying these things, but they're just like random daddy sayings of like,

Speaker 4 you know, if you stop, you stop. And they're like, oh of course, daddy. I'm like, yeah, but if you keep on going, like you gotta keep on going. Or like if if you um if you never give up, you're never gonna lose, right? Um because you just whatever you do, just do not stop. Just always keep on going, even however hard it is. And something that I think you told me or you paraphrased to me before was um, and that's on one of my sticky notes here is in the end, we all know in the end it's all okay, but if it's not okay, then it's

Speaker 4 not the end. So don't don't give up your faith. And I I think that mental toughness is like what what you need to be successful in life, be it in your art, in your profession, in your um relationships. I mean, that I think is the the the core thing. And um I think it's I think it's kind of that that mental hardening, that mental toughness is something that takes a long time to, it may take a while to develop. Um so like in lieu of that, it's to me just like never stop moving forward. Just kind of keep on going. And you know, there will be

Speaker 4 another day, there will be another chance, there will be another opportunity. You often talk about these um these uh um really awesome detours, right? So there's always gonna be something more, and whatever comes, like I mentioned before, like my my you know personal process of wake up and then do stuff during the day and then sleep, reflect, and then go to bed. It's just that feeling that I have is like, all right, there's gonna be another day to rock it and do my very best, and you just keep keep after it over and over and over, and eventually you're gonna do some amazing things. Amazing things

Speaker 4 in your personal life and your amazing things in the professional life. There, there's this like observation that you you take you take you know 30 30 linear steps, you get 30 steps, right? Boom, boom, boom, boom. But if you take 30 exponential steps, which I think every day is like it's not just the same step, you are building on your work from the prior day. So it's like it compounds, it amplifies. So it may not be exactly an exponential curve, but it's definitely not, shouldn't be linear if you do it every single day. In any case, with my analogy, 30 exponential steps gets you to third,

Speaker 4 it gets you to one billion steps. So that is pretty awesome. So again, just do not stop going, just keep going. It may be hard, you know, it may be really challenging, like envision Svetlana crawling on the ground with the chief stop. No, you know, you kept on going. And I know for every one of us, there's gonna be these stories of struggle, of you know, resilience, of tragedy, of joy. I mean, we can go into all this stuff with my story of stuttering. I stuttered when I was a kid, um, or when I was working with my family's restaurant, or when my grandpa. Died or

Speaker 4 whatever it may be. We all have these stories, but did you stop or did you keep on going? And I think if you kept on going, you'll look back and see, wow, that was actually a very meaningful moment in my life that shaped me to who I am now and what I'm able to do tomorrow and the next day.

Speaker 1 Amen. I mean, really, seriously, yeah. Uh, and you know what is also so fascinating that just came right as you were saying that is we've heard this before, right? Just do it, Nike, right? Like, and someone, at least for me, I've been fast my whole life. I mean, I've been running. So this was what I say the ultimate slowdown. And I really believe on some spiritual level, I had to break my own legs just to finally see the power of slowing down for real. And how the new mantra that now I've been saying, because my first ever boss, Lisa, shout out to Lisa if you ever

Speaker 1 hear this. Thank you still. I remember what she said. Lisa said, Svetlana, slow and steady wins the race. Slow down. I've been getting this message, Patrick, my whole life. And we keep getting it, we keep getting it. But again, it's like with the body. If you don't listen to the whisper, it will scream. And my body was screaming because I also wasn't taking the best care of my body for a long time. Right. I think often we kind of know when we're not doing our best in an area. And often there's a book, The Four Agreements, that I love. So I can link that also. Um,

Speaker 1 it's that's one of the agreements. Uh, it's an incredible book that I've also I'm sure have we talked about the four agreements?

Speaker 4 No, no, but it's very good. And I I actually have a uh showed right now. You know, I have a little mini conversion of it.

Speaker 1 Oh, there you go. So you know, right?

Speaker 4 So all my kids and my my wife, too. I mean, it's an awesome book.

Speaker 1 Yeah, uh, yeah. Do you know what they are? I always I used to forget one of them. What are they? What are the four agreements?

Speaker 4 Right now, you know, the first agreement, be impeccable with your word. 100% agree. Second agreement, don't take anything personally, absolutely. Third agreement, don't make assumptions. Fourth agreement, always do your best.

Speaker 1 There you go. So that's it. And the and for the reader, if you're not, or read or listener, if you're not familiar, I'll link the book. Check it out. I I joke sometimes that if I'd gotten royalties for how many times I've shared that book and the untethered soul and a few other books, I'd be a bil billionaire already, but that's cool. It's never been about the money. Uh, now though, I've decided it I'm gonna get all the money and build the rad grief center. So that the really awesome detour, that's what rad stands for. Thank you for bringing that back up. Why am I saying

Speaker 1 this? I kind of went all over, but I'm gonna try to bring it back. Um here's the point is that I do believe that pain is we can't get rid of our pain. In fact, I believe that if we could embrace the fact that yes, things will be hard. Sometimes it's part of life. We're human beings right now, right? But people like you, and again, you haven't like been my boss. So I don't know, but I know as your former coach and as just now uh I'm gonna say friend. Would you say we're friends? Can I say that? Okay, great. Okay, I'm I just officially asked

Speaker 1 you to be my friend on my podcast. That's very funny. No, but really, it's like um uh I'm in okay, I'm gonna see slowing down. There we go. I've been moving so fast, and I even named my company This Is It Enterprises. I've been saying this is it, this is it my whole life to bring me into the moment. This is it. Like, where are people going? Right. And I've been saying this. Lisa told me to slow down. I've been trying to slow down. And with this ultimate slowdown, I saw that I had two canes. I was in a wheelchair at some point. I could not

Speaker 1 step off a curve. I went from being a 38-year-old woman to being a 90-year-old woman, literally. And I faced that. And I even found that I could be okay and joyful there. That was, I needed to accept that somehow. I felt that wasn't my path. I chose. I'm telling you, I think if I would have chosen to believe that I had an autoimmune disorder, I might have never walked again. I tapped into some part of me, which again, uh everything I had done got me to that moment. And so now the mantra is slow and steady doesn't win the race. There is no damn race. And

Speaker 1 I really believe that going slow is the best medicine on earth. I really, really, really do believe. And I'm telling you, I say, if I was back, if I was around back then when Jesus was hanging out and talking, we would have been saying the same thing. I think we would have been talking about slowing down, being present, yeah, loving each other, no matter what we believe or who we are, or what we wear, or any of that stuff. Because when I started teaching classes after Rad passed, I was shaking. And I'd been doing this. I just looked the other day, 5200 people I've taught just

Speaker 1 for this one company, aside from my other work. That's like so many people. And I wasn't nervous anymore. But after Rad passed and my legs shut down and I was grieving and I thought my whole world was falling apart. I wanted to teach, but I was, I, I like I was literally shaking. And before that first class, I took about a month off because I mean I just couldn't even um move. Even sitting in the chair, I was in pain. I my heart was beating, I was sweating, you know, the body does that thing. Our bodies are constantly communicating with us. Again, I've sort of turned

Speaker 1 into a doctor in this, in this whole experience too, understanding the body more. I said to myself, what do I do right now so I could be present in the class and just do this? I had to do it for rad, because the question, I caught the question on my first day that I woke up, July 4th, how radically poetic. I woke up on Independence Day alone. Rad, I mean, Raddy, that was that was a move. He's here. I feel rad with me all the time. Um, but uh the question in my mind was why is this happening to me? And I caught it. The coach

Speaker 1 in me caught it. And I know that we gotta ask, ask great questions, get great answers, ask crappy questions, ruin your life. And I said to myself very gently, Sveti, you need a better question. And so the question became what do I do to have a rad day? How do I honor rad? And I'm telling you, Patrick, I got out of my bed even though I could barely move and walk. And I made it to this moment where we're sitting here because of that question. And there were times in my life where I was in such darkness that I couldn't get out of my bed even

Speaker 1 though my legs worked fine. So again, what is all this about? I told my class the truth. I said, just tell them what's going on. And I just, when I introduced myself, I just said, hey, I just from a space of authenticity, when I introduced myself, I always had a photo of me and Rad anyway. I was just sort of scared that if I didn't want to cry in class. So I just said, Hey, I just want you all to know that this is my first class back after I had a big tragedy. I lost my soul dog and I'm grieving. But here's what Rad taught

Speaker 1 me. And I somehow was able to connect every class to what Rad taught me because Rad taught me everything. Everything is about a really awesome detour. Everything is about asking a different question, everything is about love. And honestly, my classes started going better. I started connecting more to my students. I actually slowed down and I started listening more. So again, I thank Rad every day. Do I miss him? What do I want to just snuggle him and hold him? Yeah, but also Rad sent Mello and all the things that have unfolded now. I'm so grateful for the absolute worst tragedy that happened. And that's the message

Speaker 1 that I wish everyone in the world could hear, and maybe they will right now is that through that suffering and that pain, I found a sort of humanity and love that honestly I would do it again. I don't, I'm not going to have to. But I think a lot of people are afraid to actually be with their humanity and their suffering. And I think pain is a portal to the power, and it's that slowdown. And you embody that always so much for me. So thank you for listening to me share that.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. No, that that's you know, I million percent um agree with that. And um, yeah, that's why um I I always look at uh any struggle. Um, there's there's this saying, you know, but and this this is a saying that uh my wife and I learned through um a lot of work together. Um as I I think with anything you love and you um really care deeply for, you have to work on that. That that includes any relationship inclusive of your marriage. So I I thank God, I thank my wife for working with me, you know, uh for these um yeah, over 20 years now of

Speaker 4 uh of working together uh in this relationship.

Speaker 1 Wow, that's amazing. 20 years. Yeah, hi five to your wife.

Speaker 4 So in one of our our our uh working sessions, our coaching sessions, so for that with me and my wife, um, is we learned the concept of the greater the struggle, the greater the victory. And um, and actually I think through that struggle, you even have, you know, the greater the struggle, honestly, the greater the victory, the greater the love. Um we we we just celebrated another another occasion uh uh a few weeks ago, and you know, um we were having dinner together, and then I I told my wife, I said, you know, I um we we were reminiscing. I I think the the iPhone had

Speaker 4 some kind of like message that popped up like remember this, like you know, you know, I don't know, 15 years ago. And then she looked at the picture and I was like, wow, look at me there. I was like, yeah, I think that's okay. But but I think you're more beautiful now. Yeah. Which I do. I I I feel when I look at my wife now, I I think she's more beautiful because we've gone through so much things together, some of the highest joys of possible and some more challenging times, but you you come out of it uh stronger and and better assuming that you don't

Speaker 4 stop and you keep on going, you keep on moving forward, you persevere, and eventually um if you don't give up, things will be okay. Um so I think a lot about that. And and and I also think about um uh when when people are suffering, I think sometimes um people might feel helpless. Right. Like, you know, um I feel like you know, I I can't do this or I can't do that. But yeah, negative self-talk is really I think dangerous. It's very um, it's like poison. And it was interesting when you you heard yourself through that that situation, like almost something came in, but you stopped

Speaker 4 it in time and you prevented it from you know leaking in into your mind, right? So I think the negative self-talk may come in, but you gotta kind of combat that with some positive self-talk, which includes your breadth of experience, and also I think the experience of like you have confidence in yourself. Some something I tell my kids all the time is and and and I I write this to them all the time, I said, um always bet on yourself. I I I'm gonna bet on you always, but you you always bet on yourself. You know yourself, you have agency, you have the freedom to choose,

Speaker 4 you have the f the you know, you have the you know your mind is powerful, you have the power to dream whatever you want, you have the power to manifest it. Uh one one note that my I wrote for my son on a a random post-it note one day, and it was so cool when I saw him post it on his monitor in his room. Um I I wrote something to the fact that you know don't let yourself limiter, yourself limiter, your mind, limit yourself. You know, if you can put if you think you're gonna do it, you you go go at it. Go at it

Speaker 4 100% and eventually it will manifest.

Speaker 4 So that's where I think that you know, even though your suffering is a hard time and maybe really challenging, I definitely uh can empathize with that. When you feel maybe give your space, you know, like I said before, give some space for God's grace or whatever you believe in, give some space for yourself, even space for yourself to not beat yourself. Why, why beat yourself up at all? Like that makes no sense, right? You don't beat up a crying child, right? You just don't do that. So why would you do that to yourself? So like don't do that to yourself, at least like try to minimize

Speaker 4 that, but leave space for some of your own grace, your loved one's grace, God's grace to help you through that tough time, but also realize if you keep on going, you'll reflect back and wow, that thing actually made me stronger. It made me better, and I am thankful for that.

Speaker 1 Amen. Again, my friend, it's true. I mean, so much it I mean, I so much. I'm like, I I also this is such a practice of masterful listening for me, honestly. Like just being with you, because I kept feeling my thoughts coming in, wanting to, and I'm like, uh-uh, no, stay. Yes, yes, yes. I just always like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, but I I did jot down some things that I want to follow up on because you said important things. So I want to reflect back also for the listener, because again, that's part of what I do as a coach. I want to make

Speaker 1 sure that this lands. You said really important things. A about this idea of we all have that inner critic in our head, that voice that creeps in, right? Like that question that came in for me that morning, which was, by the way, a valid question. You just lost someone you really love, right? And the question of why is this happening natural. Now, the profound shift that happened for me, and by the way, I'd been practicing this for 13 years at that moment. I think I was ready for that. I think had that happened to me earlier on, I wouldn't have gotten out of my bed. That's

Speaker 1 the thing. I think this is part of the training that it's like the you've been practicing a martial arts move for so long, a fit you start with a white belt and you get to a black belt. I really thought when Rad passed that I might never get out of my bed. I was really concerned because of the depressions that I've suffered through in my life, that this might completely take me under. It was a legitimate thought, again, but a thought is just a thought. So I was actually very proud that I caught it and that I didn't demonize myself for the thought. I was aware

Speaker 1 of it and I chose to follow a different thread, kind of like a highway in the mind. This is neuroscience, by the way, right? We have these highways in our brain. Think of it that way. It's like an easy way for people maybe listening if you're not, if you haven't experienced or studied neuroscience as much. Think of neural pathways in your brain like highways, right? There's all these different roads we can always take. And typically, like if we're gonna leave our house and go somewhere we've gone before, there's probably you don't even think about it. It's like you could probably get in your car. Like, could

Speaker 1 you drive somewhere right now without consciously really thinking about it when you've like been there? Like, where do you go a lot when you drive, Patrick? Like, is there like a coffee shop or someplace, whatever, that you go to often?

Speaker 4 Kid school, I guess. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So if you had to like get a get right now to your kids' school, would you have to think much about it?

Speaker 6 You could probably autopilot?

Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. Right. That's what we do. We're on autopilot a lot of our time, a lot of our life. And the whole idea of masterful listening, of mindfulness, of meditation, of presence is to be a bit more conscious of what's actually happening in the moment, right? Because we can we do all kinds of things on autopilot. So often our brains are just conditioned with a lot of nasty negative thoughts. That's what the mind does. One of the other things that I'm telling me if I've ever said this to you, it might have come after we were working together, but uh listen to your heart, uh consult

Speaker 1 the mind with caution and trust your gut. The idea is that we're not saying all mind is bad, all thoughts are bad. Sometimes, you know, uh having a rational mind, thinking very good, overthinking bad. And I don't often say things are good or bad, but the distinction between reflecting and ruminating is something they taught us at Stanford. Reflection, beautiful. You're imagining, you're dreaming, you, you're, you're it's life affirming. Rumination is life diminishing. That's what I call a shit spiral. You know, you notice, oh, there's a uh why is this happening to me? Oh, it's because all these horrible things only happen to me. Oh, and now

Speaker 1 what else is gonna happen to me? That's the shit spiral that I teach, I think, in another episode, and I talk about this a lot. The first step to switching a shit spiral into a love loop is you gotta pause. You got to notice, oh wow, look at that voice in my head, that inner critic. And I think the biggest growth for me, and what I want the listener to hear also is it's that pivot. Because I don't like toxic positivity. I don't like when people are like, no, you should feel good all the time, everything. No, sometimes if you've just lost something and you're upset

Speaker 1 and you're sad, it is very, very normal and natural to have feelings of sadness, anger, depression for all the human feelings. They're all valid, but feelings are not facts. So I think the mastery, and I feel like you embody this that emotional uh intelligence that has, by the way, been proven now to be that the number one quality of a leader is emotional regulation, being able to regulate your own emotions and also be mindful of others. And that is a big job. Most leaders who are in the corporate world don't go to, you know, training for how to be uh therapist or psychologists. So I just

Speaker 1 want to acknowledge just learning to do this for your own self is work. But it really starts with what you pointed out, noticing that voice that's in your head. And if it is not a nice one, I think versus um rather than even focusing on switching it to be nice, just be nice to yourself when you've noticed that you're not being nice to yourself. That's very meta, but it's like what you said. Would you kick a screaming child? If you were walking down the street, that's what a Dharma teacher said that saved my life 13 years ago. He said, Svet, if you were walking down the

Speaker 1 street and you saw there was a homeless person on this on the corner crying, bleeding, would you ever walk up to them and kick them? I said, No, of course not. He goes, Of course, exactly. Why are you why are you doing that to yourself? I'm like, What? And I just took a pause and I was like, wow, that is what I'm doing. It's like I'm holding a crying baby in my arms and I'm yelling at it. And as soon as I had that visual, that was like, yeah, I'd never do that. But we do that to ourselves. How would we treat our best friend? Right.

Speaker 1 So it just um, I wanted to really land that and reflect that. Thank you for saying the inner critic, the idea of yes, we want to keep going. And it's not about being toxically positive and saying, oh, everything's great. Uh, it's about being mindful of your voice and then choosing to fill fill the rest of that in, Patrick, for us.

Speaker 4 Agree. I I I yeah, totally agree. And and that's why I I think I think the idea of um I mean finding inner pieces like maybe something meta and real like Zen-like or anything like that. But I I I just think if if you're going through a hard time, at least giving you some space to have these other thoughts is very good. Like maybe down and have compassion on yourself when you feel that way. Like listen to your body, right? And like take take a nap, take a break, realize that I am not at my optimal. Yourself today. So don't be so hard on yourself. And

Speaker 4 we all wear kind of watches. I wear a garment, and people wear like, you know, Apple watches or whatever. And you realize, oh, my body score today, my health score, my whatever sleep score isn't ideal. So don't be so tough on yourself for that day. Give your space, give yourself some grace, give yourself some space um to come back, right? Um, and definitely don't disregard those feelings you have uh inside that, you know, like just be be compassionate to yourself, I think is really important. Um, the the the other thing I'll say is like this this thinking that I'm sharing, right? Is it I mean it's

Speaker 4 it's it's like hard to do, and I'm not perfect at it either. 100% I'm not perfect at it either. Um, but that's what I aspire to do, and and I try to have things to help me help me achieve that um day in, day out, as best as I can. I don't achieve it every single day, but I try my very best to, and you start knocking out the winds. That's where I I think I think a tool that I've used, and this is something I tell my kids too, is it's really important to build a process for yourself. And then and then you rely on

Speaker 4 that process. So for instance, both my kids play golf, and uh my son just made the the varsity golf team. And um I mean golf is something also where you almost have to do this, do this introspection reflection, belief in yourself, get ready for the moment. The moment happens, then you analyze what happens, and you have to actually let it go very quickly because you have another shot coming in. So it's like that circle of life with every single shot. So it's very, very hard to do that day and do that constantly, unless if you have a process. So, like when I think about that and

Speaker 4 you apply it to your life, it's you know you have your own process to ground you. Um, like like I shared, you know. Well, I didn't share it, but like if I'm good, I usually try to make my bed in the morning. If you're good, if you're being I make that a bed in the morning because this is more like a general McCrysal thing, like make your bed in the morning because when you come back at a long day's work or whatever, like activity you come back, you're like, wow, okay, there's a great place for me to rest. So yeah, try to do that. You try

Speaker 4 to maybe give yourself five, 10 minutes to you know, smell the air outside, have your coffee, just look at the sun, look at whatever weather you have, do your work, and then I pray and reflect at night, right? So you rely on this process to help you be grounded and centered, even if your motivation or your energy level on that day might not be at its peak. But the important thing is you can rely on that process because you've made it a habit. And then, as you know, like McCrystal said before, like just like I said before to myself, like just don't give up. Never ring

Speaker 4 that darn bell. That that bell when you're a Navy Marine or I think it was a Navy SEAL, if you ring the bell, that means you're you give up in the San Diego training facility. Like, never ever ring the bell because you can keep on going. Tomorrow will be a better day. Um yeah.

Speaker 1 I uh love that you brought up the Navy. They have a saying that I will say right now, which just listen to how brilliant this is. It's interesting how much wisdom I've heard from the military, despite the fact that I'm not a fan of war. I just want to say that. Uh slow is smooth and smooth is fast. That's uh, I believe, a Navy saying. And I've been repeating it a long time. And I have found that that is also true. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. And part of being able to keep achieving and succeeding in the corporate world. And I want to talk

Speaker 1 about, I want to pivot there for a moment, uh, or not pivot, but actually gently go there. Because again, what you're saying, it's like, yes. And I can already sense people listening, being like, yeah, but what about everything is urgent? I have a million things to do. That's what I hear in classes all the time. Everything is urgent. How am I supposed to take a break? I I I sometimes ask people, I say, who here had lunch at their desk? Raise your hand honestly. And at first, people, and then suddenly everyone, and I'm like, okay. I'm like, if the one thing you get out of class

Speaker 1 today is that, then that's already a win, right? So the idea is this what I'm hearing right now and what I'm sensing in in the multidimensional insanity of the business landscape right now, there's a lot going on, right? And especially, I get it, people care. They and and there's different ways that people care. But let's just talk to those people out there who are like digging what we're saying and they're like, okay, yeah, I want to do this, but how am I even supposed to slow down and find the time, right? To to do these things? What are some tools or pieces of advice you have

Speaker 1 for people who like the the energy of this conversation, but are truly struggling, like finding a slower pace because they feel that pressure of everything being urgent? Like, do you find that that's come up on your teams or with people at work? And like, what have you done or said to help with that? Am I, by the way, clear in my question? Because I'm a bit okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and um when when you talked about that, a few things came came to mind. Um, I guess I'll I'll address urgency with uh to me, maybe priority. And then when I think about priority, then I think about your own purpose. So I'll start with that. So I I think to start, you you need to understand your own values. Like what what what what drived you? What what what is you know what do you care about? And um with one's career, and this this is something I I I tell my team is like my purpose um is actually to make sure that you have as best

Speaker 4 experience as possible on my team in the the period of time that you are on my team. So that um say one year, two years, three years, you're on my team. Um, hopefully when that time comes and you move on to even greater, bigger things and working with Patrick, which is completely fine. I'm happy for you. It's like definitely two thumbs up whenever that happens. I'm always very excited. Is that you look back and you say, Wow, you know, Patrick, like I this is my wish onto my team, that you reflect and you say, This was a good use of my time. I learned something, I

Speaker 4 grew. So for for I think it's very important for you, for one, for every person to understand your purpose. What is your dream? If if you're not bought in to what you're doing and it's not in line to your dream, you're just not gonna do it. It's like a natural thing. You do things that you like. If you don't like what you're doing, if it doesn't align to your passion, you're not gonna continue on it on the long term. It's just it's not a good fit. So for me, my purpose is um basically, and maybe this is why in my free time I like to introspect

Speaker 4 and think is like, I feel my purpose is how can I be the best version of myself uh for the people I care about, for the people I love, and ultimately help them achieve their collective goals, like achieve their goals. So that's the that's the whole thing when we start off this podcast of the ultimate goal of being a super dad. Related to that is be a super spouse, related to that is be a super friend, related to that is be a super colleague. Like that's what I'm I want to be my best self so I can help us help you achieve what you want to

Speaker 4 do. So, with with with that in mind, like I think if you're tight on your purpose and your values, then then you begin to being able to prioritize your time appropriately. Um and uh one thing that I always tell my team, and um I think I've shared this with you before, too. Whenever I lead my team, there's like three main things. Like the ethos of Patrick Tam leadership is one, you have to be aligned. Oh, that's like I should do a book on that, maybe. That'd be really crazy if it comes out of this thing. But in case, um, because I think there's some Yes, it

Speaker 4 will, it will, it will.

Speaker 1 I just I just want to say, yes, that yes, you will. And I'm getting back in my coach mode for a minute. Yes. Uh please continue.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there you go. You self-manifested, right? Yeah. So um in the Patrick Tim uh management and school of management, there are three things that are most important. Is one is purpose, and that's why I led with it as purpose. Like you have to be aligned on the purpose. Um, and I've always told my teams this like if you are in, if you're on member of on this team and the purpose resonates, then you're in. You're in, I'm in, I have your back a hundred a million percent. Um, so alignment on purpose is really important because that's gonna help you prioritize your time. And my second key

Speaker 4 tenant in the Patrick Tam School of Management is how can we build an environment? Build an environment where you are leveraging your strengths every day. Because I think if you're leveraging your strengths or at least things you want to grow in, then you're gonna need a really good time here. And you're here, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's been proven by the way. Strength-based leadership isn't just more fun uh and feel good, it works better. So just uh yes, purpose, strength, leveraging strengths. Yeah, got it. I'm taking notes at the school. I'm I'm a I'm a student and I'd like to come as a guest lecturer one day, please. Number three, let's go.

Speaker 4 Number three, I think, is safety. So safety is the concept of psychological safety. Do you feel that you know you can take the risks? Do you feel that you can fail and not be a failure, right? You won't, you know, you when you fail, you actually grow, you're gonna learn, you're gonna innovate. So you have to have that feeling of safety that everyone on the team has your back. And you know, there may be days where you're you're not at your prime or you miss something, but as a team, as a collective team, um, we can do anything together. And I I've never been on a

Speaker 4 team where we have not achieved our hugely aspirational goals. And and people may attest, or anyone who listens who to this podcast is part of my team, you'll know we we dream really big and we do really hard. But I think hopefully, you know, if you agree, that we have a lot of fun and um you feel really satisfied and fulfilled, hopefully, uh, with the work that we do.

Speaker 1 So I want to hear from them. I want to hear from the team. They better write in and write uh tell me.

Speaker 4 Write in in the comments. Five stars too would be good. Yeah. Um, so purpose, build an environment, purpose uh for alignment, and that'll I think optimize your time. Build that environment where you know, my my whole thing thing is like, how can you build that garden so people can grow and flourish uh with the strengths you want you have and you want to grow? And then that safety, I think, is is uh super important. So if you're in that type of environment, I think hopefully the sense of urgency, maybe it should feel worth it. Um, if you're in that type of environment, you feel like, and

Speaker 4 and if you have deviation, that's okay. And that's that's something I talked to my team literally yesterday in my staff meeting, is we want to be kind of lined up as much as possible, but we're always going to be kind of deviating a little bit. But as long as we can kind of you know tread the line, and the line, honestly, given how fast things move in this industry with all the technological changes, all the business changes, all the political changes, whatever it may be, that line, the alignment line changes, it ebbs. So we, as like a school of fish or like you know, flock of

Speaker 4 birds, we want to try to trend to that line as much as possible, but we may be off sometimes, and that's okay. But if we can come back together as quickly as possible, we will do a good job. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Amen. One more time. I mean, I feel like there is another mic drop moment. I I can you I would I'm dropping seriously, I'm not even making fun of it. I am kind of, I mean, uh, it's just you're so spot on everything you're saying. And I'm not surprised that your team is achieving what it's doing because you are like again, everything you're saying, there's now so much data that, like, if someone wanted the data, reach out and I'll uh send you or Google it yourself, right? Here's what I'm hearing. Building high trust relationships is the number one most important factor for high performing teams, and

Speaker 1 that is all tied to psychological safety. Google did a huge project on it, Project Aristotle, uh psychological safety. Would someone feel comfortable coming to you as their boss and saying, Hey, I just lost the love of my life and my legs don't work and I can't function, I need help. And how would you show up? Would someone feel safe enough to say that to you? And by the way, if the answer is yes, great. If the answer is no, great, have awareness of that and see if there's one little thing that you can take towards building that, right? Because that's the other thing. People are not

Speaker 1 everyone's comfortable at work sharing things personally. We all have different ways of being culturally, right? Like there's so many different aspects to what it means to truly be a human being. And the quote that I pulled up as you were talking that I wanted to reflect back to you, because I always think about this when we talk, it's a Maya Andrelou quote. And it's I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. And that you're taking notes, I hear you typing. I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay, so with that,

Speaker 1 I need to pee. So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do a fun little thing. I'm gonna go, but you're gonna share something with the audience that I'm gonna then listen to when I hear the show. It's gonna be a surprise, okay? Can we do that? Because again, I want the audience to also see take care of your body. I'm telling you, our bodies being uncomfortable in our chairs, that's another thing I teach. That if the safety, if you if your back hurts when you are trying to shoot for the moon, ultimately first take care of that, and then you can do your work even

Speaker 1 better. So I'm gonna embody that by taking a little break, and Patrick's gonna share some other wisdom that I will all share uh later. So BRB.

Speaker 4 All right, all right. Well, that that was that's an interesting uh pause, yeah? So uh first of all, thank you for continuing to listen. And um let's see, what were we talking about? We were talking about the Patrick Dance School of Management. It's kind of funny to say that. Um, I'd say uh as Vetslana just kind of mentioned, the importance of listening, I think is really important. Um

Speaker 4 and you have to be, I think, open to that. I think you know, being a an exceptional listener starts with yourself. And uh

Speaker 4 related to what I mentioned in terms of to me, what high-performing teams do, there's this there's this culture of safety. So you have to be open to listening to things, good or bad. And you have to have a culture within the team, and that's what I try to promote within my team, is that we have a culture that we can be very open and we can share. It's like a family. In a family, you can uh share your successes, but you can also cry on your shoulder, on one shoulder. You can also get kind of upset about things, but you know at the end of the

Speaker 4 day, you are still family. You know, we are the Tam fam at the end of the day. Um, and uh that I think is really important. So when when you are in these teams, I think the greatest pressure test of the concept of team safety is are you able to have those conversations? And I can tell you for even my my current team, and my team will attest to this is you know, not every day is a day of high fives and you know, awesome job, great wins, all this stuff. There are days where we have heart-to-hearts, and I feel like it is my duty. If

Speaker 4 I care about you as a team member, if I care about you as an individual, um I will have to give you some tough love sometimes, just like what I have to do sometimes with my own kids or anyone I can friends or anyone that I care about, my loved ones, well, whoever it is, uh I will want to uh share with you something to help you hopefully open up and be more self-aware so you have the chance to improve. And from a business perspective, um, I'd say, you know, try to build up that that room for safety, being able to have those really tough conversations.

Speaker 4 And I think at the end of the day, people will respect you more uh about it or from it, and ultimately you actually build more trust because I think it's the easiest thing as a as a I won't even say a leader because I think you're a really bad leader if you don't do this. If if you if you don't give that person feedback, then that's actually very harmful to that individual. It doesn't show you care for them, it doesn't show that you want them to grow. You're taking an easy way out. Um, so you know, for folks on my team who who have had you

Speaker 4 know some some tough conversations, um, you know, that's that's a reason why I do that. I know my kids know that that's the reason why I share sometimes, you know, some uh you know life lessons or tough stories with them. Um and it goes bi-directionally too. I'm very open when my team tells me, you know, Patrick, like you know, I probably wouldn't do that, or like, you know, that that that um uh you know there's something you could have done better here and there. And just a funny last story as I see Svetana back here is like uh yesterday we had a town hall with my

Speaker 4 uh boss's team. So um her team is about 120 people when all hands and things like that. And and I I went up to do a QA and I talked about uh new technologies and AI and things like that. And I I made some potentially controversial statements and I want to know what those are. I messaged my my uh uh executive assistant this morning and I said, um, I said, uh Cheryl, you know, just want to get your feedback, you know, pulse check on um how how do you think my statements landed um yesterday? And she said, um uh let me see, I can actually bring

Speaker 4 it up and let's see what she wrote. Um she wrote um uh I you know I think you did great. Um there's some other stuff I'll share maybe a little bit about that later. But she said, you know, she was surprised that I said something, but she said, I actually think it was good for you to say. Um uh right now some people think a certain way and people may not be used to it, but when you continued on the topic and mentioned that uh you could use it to help your help that person grow, um uh that was really good. I I think it made

Speaker 4 people think. I know I paused for a second and even thought interesting. And then I said, thanks for this gift, uh, the gift of feedback, Cheryl. I appreciate you as my mirror. Tell me how I tell me how you see me show up good or bad, as frequently as as possible. Your input deeply matters to me. And Cheryl says, You are so welcome. Thank you for asking for my thoughts too. That means so very much to me. You know, so I I think Cheryl, I hope that's okay that I shared that, but um I I think if you can achieve that within your team, um your

Speaker 4 team has a high, high chance to uh be very successful.

Speaker 1 Well, I missed most of that, but I'm so excited to listen to the whole story of what I missed when I get back. But the last part, feedback as a gift. That might have been did was that a class that I taught back in the day five years ago? That might have been one of the classes.

Speaker 4 That's and that that's actually one lecture I do in my San Jose State class too. Yeah, I I teach services management at San Jose State, been doing that for six years, and one of the pieces is about customer feedback. And uh, first of all, I mean that's like really important. The moment of truth is when you interact with a customer, but also at the very end of the day, their feedback is a huge gift, and there are ways to in the business world to do things so that you uh elicit that gift. So, for instance, this is a little bit of a random detour, but one

Speaker 4 one one thing I share in the class, my lecture, if anyone's interested, you can go to San Jose State and sign up. But um, but uh we'll link that.

Speaker 5 I'll link the class any case.

Speaker 4 Um, you know, one thing I say is. like you why why does Patagonia sometimes or these companies have lifetime warranties on things? Like why why do they even offer that? Like what do you think?

Speaker 1 Oh is that a quiet? Oh I love it. I like it. I like I like being in school. Uh well I would say that they are so confident about their quality a that's the first thought that came to me was that if I'm offering a lifetime warranty on something, that means A, I'm so confident in it. And B, even if kind of like shit happens and it breaks, you feel safe and protected that no matter what happens, like I got your back is kind of my answer.

Speaker 4 So what that's that's what most people say and probably that is that is true. I I don't know exactly why but my my guess is is or my my thinking is you offer a lifetime warranty is because you want your customer to give you that feedback. If something goes wrong with your product or your experience I want to hear about it. And and that is worth the replacement of a jacket a Yeti cup a whatever right right I love it.

Speaker 1 Patrick I see you and I co-teaching a class I don't know what it is but it's but it's gonna be rad.

Speaker 4 So that feedback again that feedback is so so important. So coming back to business and leadership and building teams is if you can build that say feedback loop positive feedback loop as you kind of mentioned Switzlana that uh I I forget like love loop moving the shit spiral to the love loop loop yeah that love loop idea in a business context is that feedback piece your your team is going to get stronger and stronger.

Speaker 1 I love it. I mean you're so right uh something that I'll sprinkle in on top of that brilliance already is I we learned this at Stanford and I always teach this in the feedback courses that I've taught have been some of my favorites because truly I do believe feedback is a gift but even as someone who's taught it and who believes in it it could still be tricky sometimes. So the one thing I always tell people is I never ever ever give anyone any feedback ever without saying something like hey I really care about you and I'd love to share something with you that I believe

Speaker 1 might help you is now a good time. I never give unsolicited feedback because the truth is you never know what someone's going through. You never know if they just had the worst meeting of their life right before and also I don't know about you but I don't like and everyone in my life now knows this this has become a very big boundary like if I didn't ask you for feedback or advice I don't need it. But if I ask for it I help people by telling them what kind of feedback I give. So what we did at Stanford was we used this idea of not you

Speaker 1 know often people are like good feedback or bad feedback. We did appreciative feedback which I really liked that as you know I like language and words very powerful appreciative feedback is the idea of what would I appreciate knowing that would help me. It removes the good or bad it's just I appreciate knowing anything that might help me as long as it's really coming from a genuine place of wanting to help me versus where I think a lot of times people are giving each other feedback is when they're just kind of pissed that someone screwed up and now they got to deal with it. And those moments

Speaker 1 cause problems and conflict and the research also shows and you've touched upon this already which I love that it's how we move through the conflict that actually builds deeper trust in our relationships both professionally and personally that's the data that's also the studies have shown that it's when people can work together against a problem versus against each other. That's the distinction between like on teams I see this all the time there's all these things that are happening and it's when people fight each other versus join together to fight the problem that I have seen make a huge difference in just relationship building at work. So what

Speaker 1 do you have anything to add about that?

Speaker 4 I I definitely appreciate that I I think that's a that's a good um a very good model.

Speaker 4 For me I guess my my own and and this is maybe just just where where I'm at um and for like anyone listening and you know including for this podcast I just want any feedback. All of it all of it I won't take it personally just give it to me.

Speaker 1 You're enlightened not everyone is like you Patrick I still you still you never get just a little bit like it never stings you you don't even care.

Speaker 4 I'm kind of like just gentle just just just a bit more yeah you're so four for me but again like I think what what Sosala mentioned is a very good practice is uh you know in order for people because you you want your feedback to land right you want it to be received if it's not received then it's like kind of pointless but but then it's also a little bit on that person to actually be open to receive it. But again it's it would be very optimal is with Switzlana's coaching here which is like you know ask if the person is willing to ready to receive

Speaker 4 it so that or or may maybe make a same of that you know I do have some feedback for you whenever you're ready you let me know when you're ready. And I think that that is very optimal.

Speaker 1 Well it's both let me I'll I'll interrupt back in here for a second as this is important. There's there's takes two to tango kind of thing there's the person giving feedback and then there's the receiver of the feedback. We actually uh uh or I like to break down the feedback into both of those parts because at the end of the day I cannot control really how you will perceive me no matter what I do. I have been a person in my corporate career by the way I often was given feedback that like I was so intense and my directness was scary and I'm like I'm like

Speaker 1 the most loving kind person what was happening because I asked the questions I stood up for myself I was confident I always negotiated I did all these things that were also I was reflected back oh you're very like masculine and I'm like oh that's interesting that that's considered masculine also right because I was acting like I actually felt I don't know I just was being me but I received I had my own issues because of that too. So I learned wow this is why you gotta just be you because no matter what you do at the end of the day we can never control other people's

Speaker 1 reactions to us but even though we're not in charge I think of other people's experiences I think realizing that we contribute to other people's experiences is very important. So when I kept hearing from people wow Svet, you're a bad listener, wow Svet, you're so intense I was like whoa whoa whoa I realized there's a pattern here. If a bunch of people keep telling me and by the way this was when the show was on all right I'm like knee deep in this show about listening and I had a bunch of people tell me that they did not felt heard and I just had to pause. Uh-huh

Speaker 1 oh yikes yeah oh yeah yikes yeah that's a word for it that's one word for it I'm gonna keep this clean for now but yeah that was not a fun time but when I paused I realized yeah they're right I get it I was doing some of the same shit that I say not to do because we always teach what we need to learn and that's the point I had enough compassion to go oh yeah sure I've interrupted sure but I could own it and that's what I say to leaders just own it say it's a amazing what an apology can do and say hey you

Speaker 1 know what I would just like to say I'm sorry for that thing that I did that I was stressed out and I know that that didn't land. So here's what I think a very rare type of manager and I bet you've done this tell me this is an assumption that I'm willing to share share live right now the distinction between going to your the people who work on your team and saying to them hey do you have feedback for me versus hey what type of feedback do you have for me? What can I do better as a manager? The difference between an open-ended question versus a

Speaker 1 closed ended question. The reason I bring that up is because a lot of people aren't as comfortable going to their manager and giving them feedback because they're probably not even asked for it. So that's a little tip I like to give also instead of saying do you have it what feedback do you have like what can I do better? What do you think would be helpful for me to know I find that sometimes that helps people get more comfortable sharing and just like Cheryl or was that Cheryl thank you Cheryl it feels good to be asked for feedback. It feels good to be shown that someone

Speaker 1 actually cares about what you thought right so that's just another little uh tip that I like to give is don't even just ask for it but when you ask for it ask it open-endedly not uh do you but what do you yeah I like that yeah I think that's great and I I think you can kind of go into deeper layers of that is and I think feedback and listening are are very much related is um because it's always like a uh you know you have like like I don't know two speakers you have an input and output there's always a feedback and listening and there's

Speaker 1 the interplay within um is uh definitely concur with you I I think we have as feedback providers uh we have I think an accountability um and it's like almost like your own ethos or integrity to try your best to provide feedback in a way that it can be received otherwise like why are you really doing it like are you doing it to hurt someone like why if you want like I well that's a good question I say ask yourself before you go into a feedback conversation to just pause.

Speaker 4 Yeah yeah why why are you doing it and I I I think hopefully when people see I'm when I give feedback is I'm trying to come at it from a a a posture of love a posture of care I think if you if you have that posture or intent you can still F it up sure I've done that many times

Speaker 4 yeah I'm not a master I I I I I I'm enrolling in the school right school masterful listening and masterful feedback even I constantly want to improve there. But at least like at least if you try to do that at least that I think gives you a better shot and you keep trying to improve on that every day. So I 100% agree with that for me as a feedback recipient like a feedback listener that's why like I shared if anyone has feedback on this or anything I do just to me just to me just give it to me because I I I appreciate the the quickness

Speaker 4 and honestly you even even the the the rawness sometimes um so you you don't need to sugarcoat it for me as as a personal preference um um and I'll I'll share one story is like early in my career and this was in my early early early early 20s this was my first first major job um um coming out of college um I was working super super hard crazy hard putting like you know 100 hours a week um on on the job because me and my girlfriend at the time then becomes fiance and then ultimately my my wife now like we were just trying to make ends

Speaker 4 meet we were trying to survive in the bay and it was brutal we were living in a a 400 square foot apartment and it was really tough and we wanted to get married and and I wanted to buy a ring and like you know we wanted to improve our livelihoods um and I was working really hard for about two years and my senior manager who continues to be to me one of the the beacons of my um uh my greatest managers of all time like a goat in management her name is Barbara so thank you Barbara for everything that you've done for thank you Barbara for

Speaker 4 everything that you've done absolutely um she encouraged me to to talk to the director so I I um go talk to the director and I asked the director I said uh you know um so and so you've uh you know I've been in your organization for two years now I'm top 10% rated for my grade level um uh when do you think I can get promoted and then he looks at me and says well Patrick you don't have enough gray hair I'm like what like it wasn't about anything about my job or anything like that or what I'm doing no you don't have enough gray hair

Speaker 4 and I was like okay and then I like left the room I was crying on the spot and crying out of the office literally cry like that emoji cry and I watched Barbara and I said Barbara like look and she's like what happened what happened I said we could go in a conference room close the door I remember closing the door and then I said Barbara you know so and so told me like I don't have enough gray hair and how am I gonna buy this ring I really want to buy this ring and I need a promotion and she's like oh okay I'll I'll I'll

Speaker 4 go talk to this person but I mean how hard that feedback was was super hard and at the time it was like it was like devastating it's like oh my gosh like what is happening here but looking back at it though to me it's like honestly to be frank it's one of the best pieces of feedback I've ever received in my life ever received because he could have kind of like sugarcoated but in reality was I was young I mean I'm Asian so I didn't I tend to look young and now I have like you can I was gonna say you got that awesome I know

Speaker 4 it's not when my hair's not even like wet ish with this like product is like really really great now. But in any case it was really kind of true it's like you know that is how you're being perceived um and like you know like it's it this is I'm like my gosh like thank actually thank you for giving that feedback that just that just encouraged me honestly it was like lit a fire under me like I'm gonna show this guy you know what you know what I can do so we're even harder stronger put it even more effort I think I promoted promoted promoted and then

Speaker 4 eventually I think I was the the fastest the youngest director at this company like in terms of age ever before right so so it's like it gives you some drive and energy and also just like I know it's like hey dude like this is it I was like wow anyways that's that's that that's my point of view for for me I I appreciate feedback in all forms um I do recognize that I think the whole intent with feedback is if you want to help them person improve then you know come at it from a a posture of love and care and try to help them receive

Speaker 4 it.

Speaker 1 Yeah so much goodness there first of all you have great hair I just want to say that so I feel like you do you really do. Your hair is amazing. Okay I just want to say that I'm much more concerned with people's inner their internal world than the exterior but I you do got great hair so I'm just gonna I'm just gonna own that um I want to say something about the sugar coating thing because this is very important. This is a big thing now I really wholeheartedly with my entire being believe direct is kind. Direct is kind so I am not a big sugar coater

Speaker 1 oh no no I though believe that if you are truly embodying the directest kind another way to say that is kind and firm kind and firm those are what drive me right and so I totally appreciate like if I was about to head off a cliff I would want someone to say hey hey right however the way that we speak I think matters even more than what we say and that's that this is where this is nuanced right and that's why I love what you're saying about that intention right if you're truly going in there with a good intention I think the only the real thing

Speaker 1 to elevate any feedback is tell the person in advance your freaking intention. It's just easier because when someone hears that before it's critical it softens the inevitable ow it's like you prick your finger on a on a thorn it will hurt right and it's okay it's not about trying to be nice. I actually think trying to be nice isn't nice. I think being direct is nice but I think the way the energy like I always say if you're going into a feedback conversation when you are energetically really pissed off at someone they will feel that so at least own that like so if I was me

Speaker 1 and I had to have that conversation I'd at least walk in and be like hey I just want to say I'm really overwhelmed right now. So you're gonna probably feel that and I really want to say these things because they're really really important versus hey why did you mess that thing up last week I think that is where so many problems I'm sensing from what I'm hearing from so many thousands of people are happening is that people again are not pausing enough to check in on you know what maybe I want to have this conversation with them tomorrow morning. Yeah maybe I just want to sleep

Speaker 1 on it. That's the emotional intelligence part that I'm saying is like say the thing don't sugar the the the that shit sandwich thing that model of because then people don't trust you okay then people don't trust you the shit you know the the yeah uh the shit sandwich for anyone out there who's not familiar it's the idea of when you give feedback you know say something nice and then say the thing that you really want to say but then say no the thing is people can sense people teach that in courses. Yes I know and that's the problem is that it only works when the good

Speaker 1 stuff is real. I say use the shit sandwich if what you're saying that's positive is real then I'd say of course start out with something that's working. I because the thing is psychologically and again this is so much research I've done into just the psychology of human beings imagine you've worked and I had this with my partner all the time and then he learned and if you ever listen to this Jonathan I love you and thank you it's gotten better um I I have a uh I have a very great platonic life partner who's uh gay he's my gay husband and we have a whole thing

Speaker 1 we got married burning man he's someone who we fell in love on a very deep human level and we are different in any way humanly possible he's like you he's like just give it to me and I'm like okay well can we just be a little more gentle okay it's been this whole thing we used to have a conflict and I would just say look imagine I just spent so much time recording an episode that means so much to me and what he would do is he would have all these great things to say but the first thing he would say to me was always yeah

Speaker 1 well why did you do this thing? And then it hurt yeah and then I couldn't even hear the rest of what he was saying which genuinely wanted me to hear and so that's where I was like whoa this is happening a lot where just start with the genuine like what did work and oh I want to know the truth you tell me that feedback but it's like lube what is it loop communication is lubrication I heard somewhere which I really liked another thing. Just it's more gentle if you do it this way and again slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Speaker 4 It's like all the same thing so yeah and I I'd I'd say um very much agree very much agree and and one thing is um I think as with everything you you need to know your audience and you know you like that that's what I shared before like like why why are you actually going to do what you're gonna do? Why are you giving this feedback? Like if you really love the person you really care about it you will take those things in consideration know your audience know what resonates with them know like like you know giving feedback instantaneously when that person is in shell shock

Speaker 4 it's not gonna work it's not gonna land so like you know fix your strategy if you actually care and you want to do something I mean that's something like I try to again I'm not by no means perfect at it I'm just trying to just try to improve in this craft every single day as with everything but you you want to know when when is it the best time to provide the feedback to your your team or to your kids or to your spouse your loved ones so that they can receive it. And oftentimes I mean you you gotta be um you gotta truly empathize you

Speaker 4 you really need to if you love that person you really need to try to know that person sometimes the best thing in the moment is to not give that feedback directly immediately and it's just to be you know present with them be at peace with them be their be that crying shoulder for them and then when their heart is open when that have when they have the space for that little bit of grace then then that may be the best time. So you know that's that's a constant kind of you know work in progress I think um you may hit it at a ballpark sometimes you

Speaker 4 may miss but you know hopefully you get you you refine It you refine it over time. And the the other thing I'll say is that um I think you know, as the four agreements you know talks about, don't make assumptions. Don't make assumptions that just because you like, you know, for me, I have the mantra of just like trying to just get better every single day, but not everyone's like that.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 4 Not everyone's like that. Like it could be a little bit more chill, could be a little bit more like let's just just roll with it a little bit. So, so you know, again, like if your objective is to help someone experience more joy and happiness or fulfillment, then like roll with roll with your audience a bit. Um, you know, don't assume that you know they they want you know everything you want.

Speaker 1 So that's a big one, right? Realizing, oh wait, not everyone is like me. Yeah, no, no. In fact, I say this too somebody might just be totally fine, like not wanting to constantly grow all the time and advance their career. Let's say, like, we don't have to make that wrong, too. What if somebody's at a stage where they're just comfortable but in a great, happy way? What if someone else is like it's just I think that's a really great point that just brought up to mind one of my favorite leaders that I've ever uh had, Karen, shout out. If you ever hear this, you know who

Speaker 1 you are. I love you. I remember I was at a company that was back in the day at Robert Half, very, very, very, very, very corporate. Imagine me in the most corporate environment ever. I was in a suit, my suit was funky. I had flowers all over my suit. But again, it didn't even matter because I was doing a really good job. But I ended up quitting that job. But this is getting us to I want to talk to you about knowing when to pivot and quit. Keep that um I think that's an interesting thing I want to ask you about. But um, I remember I

Speaker 1 was very unhappy at the time because I was a top sales, I was always a top sales performer, by the way, anywhere. Since I was 16 years old, when I sold shoes to any single job. And this was at the height of when UX was becoming really big in the Bay Area. And I was a technical recruiter. So like it was booming. I was excited, I was great, but I was unhappy because I didn't like sitting at my desk all day. I was, I was just like, I need it to move. And I remember Karen was like, Svetlana, get out of go, go do what you

Speaker 1 want, go walk around the block, go meet people, just do your thing, do it however you want to do it. And I was like, I love it. Because of that, there's a whole episode about that. There's a lot there. But the point is, she said she tried her best to work with me and make me feel like I could fully be more me. Unfortunately, even though at that company they increased my salary when I tried to quit 25% in a day, I remember. And you know what? It kept me three more months and I still quit. Why do I say that? Because sometimes the best thing

Speaker 1 to do is pivot and quit. So that's what I want to ask you about as well. Because we've been talking so much about keep going, keep going, keep going. So, how can someone know when to not keep going and pivot in your experience? Because I'm with you. I'm all about you keep going, but I'm also like the biggest quitter I know. I quit over 30 jobs, I moved around a lot. So that's something I remember telling you I was so inspired by your career because, like, even you were at Cisco for like almost two decades and now in service now. Like you've had that longevity, which

Speaker 1 I really admire. I think it brings me to that other distinction of better at versus better than, right? We're often putting people into these boxes. Oh, you're better than this person because of this. Uh-uh. No, we just have different journeys. I had a lot of people ask me when I was interviewing for jobs, why'd you quit all those jobs? But I had a really legitimate story. I would say the reason I left is because as soon as I saw that my leader was not someone I wanted to be like, I had no reason to stay. And I said, I hope you prove me otherwise. I'd love

Speaker 1 to stay. I didn't find that. Yeah. So talk, let's talk about that. Like that's a good one.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I um and even though I was at Cisco for uh almost 20 years, 19.75 years.

Speaker 5 Um Wow, 19.75 years.

Speaker 4 Yeah, 19.75 years. Um uh every three or four years or so, I moved on to a new thing. And and it my my my method to that piece was well, every every next two thing, every next new thing was opportunistic. Um, but my what I give guidance to any students or you know, um people in general is I feel like the first year is a blessing because I'm new in the role and they're investing in me. I'm learning and learning, and and I don't take that for granted. I try to absorb as much as I possibly can, you know, build the connections, understand the process, understand

Speaker 4 the business context, build up all that business acumen. And then I think in years two, three, and four, you shine, you you give back, you return the favor, you return the value. Um and after four years, you're kind of a pro and then rinse and repeat. Um, another another view in terms of pivoting, I think, is some in my career. You'll see that I focused on I spent four years at the Internet Business Solutions Group at Cisco, which was going pretty broad in an area across this was how you use the internet to transform your business full stop, enterprise-wide. Then my next job, I was in

Speaker 4 four years in a function supply chain, then I spent almost six years in in um in a services strategy business overall. Then I went deep into one part of services, then I went broad again, enterprise enterprise corporate planning. I ran that for four years. So it's like a T formation, it's broad, deep, broad deep. So that's another pivot message. But I I'd say what I really want to talk about more is, and that's a little bit more say mechanics, I think, of how my spin, and I'd support that for anybody. Um so some lessons there in the school of patrick management is like keep going, I

Speaker 4 think, in the rule. I I think if people move too quickly, uh you don't you don't give your yourself the chance to be at your best, be at your like at your peak performance, so people can see it and you can provide value and you build the connections, and that springs for you is your next thing. But the the other thing I want to share, which was something I just talked to um a colleague of mine, Alice, uh, yesterday at lunch when I was at uh ServiceNow headquarters for for just to reconnect with her. Um we were talking and stuff like that about career and uh

Speaker 4 and things, and it's you know, February of 2025, so it's the beginning of the year, and we're about to have our annual uh performance reviews and everything uh this week. And uh mine is actually in about um an hour and a half from now. Um is um is uh is um I said, What what are your goals for this year? And she said, uh, well, you know, I'd I'd I'd like to move up to senior director level. And I said, Well, you know, the company's growing and it's it's we have a lot of pressure right now. It's really hard to get promoted these days because uh

Speaker 4 we're all expected to scale up as the business is growing. So expectations continue to grow. What I shared with her, and she appreciated this, was I said, you know, for me, I'm kind of less about um the titles these days, and it's more about the skills. Every single day in my job, am I growing my skills? Do I feel like I wake up, and this is a whole you know, Patrick process is am I waking up excited about the day so that I can learn more, grow more, contribute more, and I'm building up my skills. I of course I would love to be recognized with you

Speaker 4 know more pay, a title, more stock, all that stuff. But if I'm not growing my skills, then to me it is time. It is time to pivot, time to do something else. Because why are we here? Why are we here? And and and maybe just like what you said with that job, like they could pay you more, but that that didn't retain you for like, you know, another year, just retained you for like three months or three weeks. I forget what you said, three something, right? Um, it was super short. It's it's temporary, unless if you feel like you are growing and and you're doing something

Speaker 4 that you think matters. So that's why it all aligns back to I mean, purpose and everything like that. I mean, we've we've we've all heard that the whole Steve Jobs commencement speech um uh phrase, or I forget, he says something like, you know, if if um if uh today was your last day of your life, would would you want to do what you're about to do today? So uh ask yourself that. Because if if you can probably do that for a few days or maybe for a few weeks or something like that, but eventually that's gonna grind on you, and you're not gonna want to wake

Speaker 4 up, and then it's gonna be like that downward spiral, right? And why why do that? You have agency, you know, you have agency to make a choice. Choosing to stay and not do it, choosing to do nothing, that's a choice. You chose that, right? You chose that is a decision, conscious decision that you made. So you gotta live with those ramifications then, if that was your choice. You know, I um uh my kids know I'm a big fan of John Wick, and John Wick has a saying with the movies that series is like the rules and consequences, right? That's to me a rules and consequence of

Speaker 4 life. And my my my mom once told me to ever since I was a little kid, little little kid, she said, nothing comes from nothing. So if you do nothing, you're gonna get nothing, honestly. And we grew up really poor, we grew up in East San Jose. I I had nothing. I had nothing. I my my mom made my own shorts. I got teased at school. She would buy fabrics, a Joanna Fabric, to do my, you know, build and sew my own shorts, like stuff like that. We we went to payless shoe sources to get my shoes. I it wasn't until high school um what I

Speaker 4 made the cross country team. And I I didn't have running shoes when I made the cross country team. The first pair of Nikes that I ever had was was uh an off-the-rack 10% discount from Foot Locker at Eastridge Mall in San Jose that was a display item, so we can get 10% off. Yeah, that was the first shoe I ever Nike that I've ever had after making the cross country team. Ever. And I was like cherishing those shoes. Like it's crazy. So, like, you know, nothing comes from nothing. You have agency, you you have the choice. It may be hard, maybe don't pressure yourself too that

Speaker 4 you have to change like immediately, but eventually tell yourself like I I'm not powerless here. I have the capability, I have the choice, I have the ability to craft this better future for myself. Um, so that's that's what I think about in terms of like your pivot. And like I shared in the corporate environment in my team, I say, like, you know, I I'm not gonna take offense if you want to go on to something else. Like, I will encourage that of you. You know, that's great. I'm very, very happy. But while you're on my team, I want to do my best to help you grow,

Speaker 4 help you flourish.

Speaker 1 Yes, and shout out to Payless Shoes. I used to go there too with my immigrant refugee family. Funny enough, I used to go to Ross in uh when I was in high school. I my parents got me, and again, I am so so grateful to them all the time. But hearing your story again, and I'm so grateful to your mother and to all the people who work very, very, very, very, very hard, right? To to just build a better life for themselves and for their families. I see you, I honor you. It's there's so much hard work, and I don't believe it has to be as

Speaker 1 hard anymore. That's the thing I've chosen. It's like I feel like I have the privilege at any point, like I have Maslow's hierarchy of needs where I'm standing on like the shoulders of just these giants. Like my mom used to laugh at me when I would quit all these jobs. I remember when I quit Google and Apple, she'd be like, What do you mean? You quitting do you want to be happy? And I was like, Yeah. So it's like also this very immigrant thing that I it's a very common thing, right? Like, I was supposed to, they forced me to go to business school. I wanted

Speaker 1 to be an artist, but I'm so grateful for all that because again, every I really believe hindsight's 2020. Steve Jobs said something similar. Uh, you only connect the dots looking backwards, not the right. Yeah, you can't look at forward, yeah. I can't connect them forward. Yeah, exactly. And here's the thing is that uh I believe that we are the creators of our reality in a big way in terms of manifestation. But I really believe that if we you are going to work every day saying, Oh, everything is really hard, it sucks, that is what you will keep creating. Yeah, and you are choosing that, and this

Speaker 1 is where we, Patrick and I are both being what I call fiercely compassionate, because the first step I think is to awaken to actually yes, you are the problem, but you're also the solution. That is what I keep saying to people just owning that like if you don't like where you're at right now, like have you ever woken up, Patrick, and not liked where you've been at ever? Has that ever happened to you in your life?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it has, it has. It it it was a reason why I did a big pivot, one of the biggest pivots in my life in terms of um, yeah, um, switching, switching companies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And exactly.

Speaker 1 And have I you have a choice, you get to choose your choice, you get to choose what you're gonna do. And I chose to quit over 30 jobs and I would do it all again because I was guided by something that I couldn't explain, because I was meant to be an entrepreneur and do what I'm doing, and I'm really glad. Was my path easy? Uh no, had I known how challenging my path would be, had I known that if somebody would have said to me, yes, Satana, um, you're gonna actually achieve all of your dreams, which I do believe I've already achieved everything I've ever dreamed

Speaker 1 of. Now my only dream is to just keep being present in the divine moment now. But if somebody would have told me what I would have to go through between losing weight and being handicapped, I mean all of it, I would have said no. So I'm glad I didn't know. If I had to do it again, I would because what I discovered through all that is exactly what you're saying. I'm reflecting back. Like we always have a choice, and you're gonna write that in your freaking book because it's amazing. And because what you're talking about, it goes along with the data. I spoke at the Global

Speaker 1 Happiness Summit, I've met researchers of happiness in the world. There are three main levels level one, two, and three. Level one is the salary bump, the the promotion, the characteristics. It works temporarily for a couple of weeks, for a couple of months, it might keep people kind of a little more happy, but it fades. Level two of happiness is the state of flow. You know what that is? It's like you know, when you're doing something like you and I get into reflection flow and time flies by. You already lose a sense of time, you're so in it, but that's just level two. And you know what

Speaker 1 level three is that ultimately brings people happiness according to all the researchers on the planet.

Speaker 1 It is entire purpose doing something beyond just yourself, and that is different for everybody, right? And this isn't about preaching to God or spirit, it could be to me. I'm a deeply spiritual person, I always have been, but it's doing something beyond just you, and now I so wholeheartedly get that, and I know you do too, that I remind people of that, that in leadership and in management, but also just in life, instead of the dangling carrots and sticks of you get this or you get punished, consider are you creating an environment where there's a connection to values and purpose and strength and stability, as I

Speaker 1 said, because that is it.

Speaker 4 I agree, I agree. And um keying off some words you you mentioned in terms of privilege. Um I'm I'm part of a uh men's group, it's called Wake Up here in our local parish. And um it's part of this, and it's it's it's like it it we we get together every second Saturday. It's called Wake Up because it starts at 6 30 in the morning, uh every second Saturday of the month. And in the last one we did, um, just in uh just in February, a few weeks ago, I mean it's kind of hard to get up, but you know, you you do it, but every

Speaker 4 time I do it, I feel like really grateful. But one one of the things that we broke out in small groups, a team of five men, it's a men's men's group. And um, and uh one guy said, Um, in terms of like privilege and gratitude, actually, he said, like, you know, if if you come from a mindset that uh my life is a gift, that changes a lot, right? Like, okay, my parents got together somehow, some way, kind of like what you mentioned in terms of all everything that happened before you, all your things your parents did. And even your life, them coming together created you

Speaker 4 as a person. That is an amazing gift. So if you think about it in that way, everything thereafter is for sure a gift. Right? Right? Even the gift of your parents being born was a gift and their parents getting together, all that stuff. So think about all that lineage, all that, all those dots, as Steve Jobs says, all those dots to make to make you who you are right now. It is mind-boggling, and it is a gift gift, a super gift. So if you have a gift, why not maximize that gift?

Speaker 5 A gift gift yourself. I love a gift gift.

Speaker 4 Huge, huge. And and then the the the the the other thing in terms of privilege, and and this is where like you know, looping it back to like maybe when you pivot or sometimes hard days at work, it's um there I was watching the the the US Open um just this year, and and uh I I had to pause it because I I saw this plaque in Arthur Ash Stadium. And as as as as a player is walking through the the the tunnel to the court, it said, pressure is a privilege.

Speaker 3 Hmm.

Speaker 4 You're walking up into freaking Arthur Ash Stadium, US Open, championship, or whatever, quarterfinal, semifinal qualifying thing, high pressure. But my God, that pressure is an absolute privilege. It is a testament to all the hard work you put in, all your predecessors, all your relationships that made you who you are, what you are, your your point in time, your moment here. This working with you right now is a privilege, or talking with you is a privilege. And and if we're grateful for that, then that's that's like a different mindset. So even on your worst days, even on your worst days, it's honestly like, yeah, it may feel

Speaker 4 bad, but like take a step back. I'm sure you could find some ounce of of you know satisfaction through or recognition that this is actually ultimately, ultimately good for me. Um, so that's something I kind of wanted to share too. And you know, I think um in terms of like um the the purpose piece, I totally agree with you that at the end of the day, like uh when you're when you're at peace, your peace with yourself, it's like am I um maybe am I this human being that are is doing doing human things for the benefit of something that is bigger than myself? Like that

Speaker 4 to me is my purpose. Like you heard about super dad, super spouse, whatever, all those things that I tell myself. Like I I feel like that is ultimately my sense of fulfillment. There, there was that as as you have a copy of my children's book, Finding Happiness, uh, that I wrote for my daughter when she was um you know five years old and got bullied. And you find happiness inside of you. And to me, I find happiness inside of myself when I can feel at the end of the day, I've done my best to help my my the people I love.

Speaker 1 I forgot about the children's book. I love that book. I'm gonna link a copy to that book too. Yes, I will link all of Patrick's Your courses will now be flooded. You're gonna room for people. Um, but no, I mean, but yeah, but no, but yes, and yes, and I feel again, I was just look at how many notes I have.

Speaker 4 I've just been oh wow. You just send me pictures of those. Those are good notes. Oh my god.

Speaker 5 Talk about the ultimate mirror now.

Speaker 1 Okay, I'll send you pictures. Send me pictures of your notes that you're taking. No, I love it, but that just shows I can I you're just so hungry for you're listening, Patrick. And I just want to thank you for that because I can feel it. I I really believe there is not there's very few experiences I've discovered as a human being that feels better than really being really being listened to when you can tell someone is genuinely interested. And with you. That is why masterful listening is it's a dream for me. I mean, to me, I'm literally sitting here and I'm like, wow, the old the

Speaker 1 Svetlana who was quitting all those jobs would be so happy to know that this is where she ended up. Because let me tell you, in a lot of moments, I was just like, Oh my, what is even happening right now? And here's what I had someone say to me, and I wrote this down, and I will send you the note, but you're gonna also have this because it's now gonna be encapsulated for all of the time moving forward. Uh I had a friend, he was actually a very uh spiritual person, also um of the Christian faith, I believe. And it was a very low time in

Speaker 1 my life. It was the first time when like everything really, really, really collapsed for me. Right before this, I was at Google, I was launching Google Glass, I was just finding photos of that. What a time we were throwing parties out on the bay. Shout out if anyone hears this from the Google Glass team. That was a wild 2013. We were wearing face computers, it was all so new and exciting. I met the I met who I thought was my husband. I was everything was I was at the top of the mountain. And then almost one after the other, I got sick. It's like I I

Speaker 1 the the metaphor that I give there is there were three tents of life. There was health, work, and love. And all three in mine collapsed. And literally, I went from being on the greatest, coolest moonshot team. That was my dream in business school. I did a project at Google, to uh I ended up literally in the psych ward. And I share, I oh no, that was not where I thought the story was going, by the way. You know what I mean? And so why am I even saying that now with so there's no attachment of stigma or anything because I realized I'm gonna break mental health

Speaker 1 stigma. I have never met anyone in this life who has not had a mental health issue. Do you know that the cost of disability that companies are paying is in the billions because people are not healthy, because people are suffering, because mental health is part of our health, our brains are in our bodies. The first question I ask anybody as a coach is tell me about your sleep. I started waking up in the middle of the night of sleep, I got sick, and unfortunately, because of the system in our country, which is a whole other episode, and I do a lot of mental wealth work. I'm

Speaker 1 a mental wealth advocate for this reason. I went from the top of the world to I was walking around the street so anxious I couldn't breathe. And I learned then that it could happen to anybody. I thought I was somehow immune. You know, I honestly thought there were some people who had their shit together and other people who didn't. And I didn't think that because I was a cruel person, I really genuinely did not know what I did not know. And when I found myself walking around the street looking like one of the homeless people who I had passed a lot of times in San Francisco,

Speaker 1 it was a very humbling experience. And my whole world was spinning. It was a very bad spiral. I went from being the most I was a great writer. I was getting articles published for Great Place to Work Institute as I was working at the greatest place to work, and suddenly here I am, and I can't get out of my bed. This was part of my awakening. I now know, but at the time I was terrified, I didn't know what to do, I was very scared. And here's what somebody said to me. I was talking on the phone and I was inventing, and you know, it was

Speaker 1 very scary. If anyone out there, or if you, I don't know, has had a very severe depressive episode, it could feel like your entire universe is collapsing. It's a very real thing. A lot of people suffer with depression and anxiety, and I share it to normalize it. I share it to say that it's okay. Just because it feels like your world has completely fallen apart. There's a thing in the Torah, Gam Zayavor, this too shall pass. That's from the Bible, somebody said to me at one time. And I have it tattooed on my arm in a phoenix in the flames. Because everything passes, the good, the

Speaker 1 bad. So what my friend said to me as I was sitting, I remember I was on a curb outside of a friend's house. I couldn't sleep very well back then. He said, Have you considered? Because I said, Why is this happening to me? Which is why we're bringing it back to what happened with Rad and why it was so profound. He said, Could I offer this? What if instead of saying, God, why is this happening to me? What if we looked at why is this happening for you? What if this is happening for you? He said. What if this is happening for you instead of what

Speaker 1 if this is happening to you? Just that one word planted a seed which grew into me sharing with people the you don't have to do anything, you get to do things. You don't have to do your dishes, you get to do your dishes, you don't have to wake up and go to work. You get to wake up and go to work. It's all connected. And I want to say at the time when I was in a deep depression, I did not like what he said. It hurt me. I was like, what do you mean this is happening for me? But I heard it. Some part of

Speaker 1 me remembered that, and I'm telling you, it helped me to hold on. And now I keep passing along this message, and I feel like you're saying something very similar. That was what I wrote down when you were speaking. Because I remember that, and shout out to Steven, who we both also helped each other at different moments. That's the thing, you never know how one word you say might change or save someone's life. I have a sticker on my car that says, if you're looking for a reason to stay alive, this is it. And I've had a few people recently literally come up to me and just

Speaker 1 point at the sticker and say, thank you. And I said, You're welcome. I needed that message at some moment too. So Rumi says, We're all just walking each other home. And I really do believe that. I love Rumi the poet, and I really feel like you are part of walking me home. I'm somehow part of walking you home. This wake-up group that you have. Is there a single man in there who might want to be my husband? Um I just had to reflect some of what I was writing down because seriously, it's just it's like it's so beautiful hearing the words come out of you. And

Speaker 1 I thought you would appreciate. Have I ever shared that with you before?

Speaker 4 That would be like that before. That's that's huge. Um, and thank thank you for uh being kind of vulnerable and sharing sharing that. Um, I'm just yeah, um just reflecting on that a bit. And I I I love what you said in uh why is this, you know, that that change of mindset and words, and and um yeah, as you know, words matter, of course, right? Like you know, what you said, why is it happening, change it from why is it happening to me versus uh for me. And I think that mindset is is huge, huge because then you have a thinking about well, you know,

Speaker 4 um looping back to a lot of things we talked about before, like you know, suffering, how it softens your heart, um uh the greater struggle, the greater the victory, you know, all these events, it's hard to see what it is. You you can't see what's ahead, you can only see what's behind in terms of connecting thoughts, all that stuff. And it's all part of the the richness of the fabric of your life. And um when I think about some of the hardest times in in my life, it it definitely shapes like who I am today, right? Like uh I shared a little bit that we grew

Speaker 4 up um practically we were an immigrant family here um into the Bay Area. You know, my my parents' first job was my dad was a busboy at a Chinese restaurant, and then my mom worked at uh fast food place and then bank, and I went to all public schools until high school, and you just kind of work your way up. We had a family restaurant, an American restaurant, and I worked with busboy janitor and host, you know, everything you could think of to just make it. And all of that kind of you might think, well, why why do I why don't I get to go out

Speaker 4 and have uh uh play dates with my friends? Well, because I had to take care of my uh 90-year-old uh grandpa that had Alzheimer's, and and I I stuck with them throughout all my high school years, from 1990 to 1995. I was with him, caring for him, literally, um, until he passed away. And when he passed away, I was devastated. And I just remember opening up the doors that my mom told me the night before she said, you know, you know, say goodnight to grandpa and uh kiss him and hug him, and um, because um, you know, I think this might be the last time, and

Speaker 4 I said I did that, but I didn't believe it. And and um when I woke up, she told me, yeah, grandpa passed away, and I was like just devastated because he was he was kind of a rock for me ever since I was a kid. He always believed in me. Uh, so I opened up the door and just ran. I just ran, ran, ran, ran, ran. So that was really a tough time. Um, so that I think that forges who you are. So you may think, why is this happening to me? Well, why is it happening for me? How is it strengthening me? Another story I'll

Speaker 4 share is like I I shared this with you before, but it's like mind-boggling that um I stuttered. I stuttered all the way up through even college, honestly. And I never took any like speech therapy thing or any there wasn't Google when I was a kid to Google like self-help or anything. There's nothing. I I never I still I I I should go to Chat GPT and GPT, like like how do you solve for stuttering? I never oh there you have no idea techniques. Um I vividly remember in in high school English class, um I'll I'll I'll won't say names of my teacher would be like, you

Speaker 4 know, you go around the table around the class and it's your turn to read something, and I would freeze up and I would stutter my way through big time. You can't even get through like three sentences.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 4 So to come from that till to go to college and um work through all the presentation classes you have to do to you know, project presentations and you know, presenting in corporations, and it wasn't until like I don't know, 10 years ago or something, I even told my wife, like, did you know where I started? She's like, No, how could that be? You never started in college. I said, if you think of it, I actually do, and actually today, these days, I kind of still do in in a small way. But to come from that to being here with you, like, you know, for I don't

Speaker 4 know how long we've been talking, like for two hours or so. I mean, that's it's insane. So all these things, like, you know, that mindset happening to me versus for me, I think that's that's a big deal. Embrace whatever you're going through and know that that it is it is ultimately, however hard it is, it's ultimately gonna make you stronger and build that richness of who you are and what you could do for others.

Speaker 1 I mean, once again, amen. And thank you so much. I'm I'm so touched that you shared that really beautiful story. Um, I could just also feel you're just like I just I just like it to see the little boy in you. That's the thing. We're all just little beings. That's what you know, that's the thing. And as as the listener, as we're starting, I'm feeling like our arc is building towards starting to rap. Like me and Patrick, even right now, you know, just through this conversation, I realized we have so much more in common than I even realized. You just do not know. I would go

Speaker 1 to Ross and buy things in New York. And when people would ask me, where'd you get that? I go, I got it in New York because I wasn't lying. I was embarrassed to say I bought stuff at Ross because my immigrant parents got me a scholarship into a really nice Jewish day school, which by the way, shout out to JDS. I'm always very grateful. I got the best education, but I never felt like I belonged there because I would go to people's houses and they looked like they were the size of synagogues, and I lived in an apartment. And I, you know, it was just like

Speaker 1 I had to face a lot of my own journey, which again, people here meet me in Northern California and Marina. I live in Sausalito, they don't know that I'm a r Jewish refugee who was on one of the last planes to leave the Soviet Union literally as it was collapsing and the border shut. I always have chills when I think of like one more day. And I would not be sitting here with you on this podcast having this conversation. So it is a miracle, it is magic that we're here. And this post-it I wrote yesterday that's part of my book, which is called Radically Poetic, because

Speaker 1 that's what my life has been, is there's always an opportunity to turn something into magic.

Speaker 4 And I always an opportunity to turn something into magic. I agree.

Speaker 1 And I really believe that. And I say I'm a witch and I'm a magic magician, but all that really means is I understand energy and I understand the power of our mind and our thoughts and what we say that we create. And I know how hard it is sometimes when you have horrible thoughts in your head. Again, I ended up in the hospital because my thoughts were spinning out of control so much because I was in pain and I was scared. And what is more human than that? Right. And I just want to just say if you're out there and you've been scared and in pain,

Speaker 1 uh, I I feel you and I love you, and I'm sorry, but it's okay. It does not mean you're crazy, it does not mean you have to be sick for the rest of your life or something's wrong with you. It could mean a million different things. And the thing is, it's up to you. If you're gonna tell a story, you might as well make it a good story. That one, Patrick, you must have heard me say before. Because that's something that I really believe.

Speaker 4 Yes, yes, and I I am I think you know, every every moment, if you kind of as we I think come come to come to a bit of a uh conclusion, I think, is is um every single moment we have like again, give that space so you could reflect and absorb it. And I think if you're open to that, then you will be able to find that silver lining or find that meaning of why that moment is is occurring, why it's happening for you right now. You may not see it immediately, but I think ultimately you will. And I think that's ultimately like that is the

Speaker 4 end game. Like I said before, savor the flavor, savor the flavor of life. Um, there was um uh a few years ago, this was during COVID, by the way. My my son was doing his English, English uh uh brainstorm thing on some kind of virtual classroom that his school was using during COVID. And then the teacher had these post-its, like virtual post-its. And the prompt, the question was um, what what and he's in like middle school, so I don't know. He's like uh I forget what age, but you know, seventh or eighth grade, something like that. And um, the prompt was what do you want to

Speaker 4 be in 20 years? What do you want to do in 20 years? Um, so I don't know what what what what do you think an eighth grader or seventh grader would say, Switzerland?

Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, an eighth grader or seventh grader in 20 years. I don't know, a fireman.

Speaker 4 Yeah. A fireman, what else?

Speaker 1 Uh an astronaut.

Speaker 4 An astronaut, yes, a doctor.

Speaker 5 Oh, yes.

Speaker 4 Uh a you know, soccer player, messy or something like that. NBA player, football player, right? Like something like that, right? Yeah, an engineer, who knows, right? Uh movie star, whatever. You know what my my son says? He says one word. He says, living.

Speaker 7 Oh my god.

Speaker 4 And guess what grade he got?

Speaker 5 I don't want to. I'm gonna get mad.

Speaker 4 He got zero.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Oh my gosh, I remember you. I remember you telling me this.

Speaker 4 Oh wow. Yeah, he got his he got he got a zero. It dropped his class grade from an A to a B. And then I like, I like he he he shared. I I actually think the teacher maybe shared shared the thing to me and says, Hey, you know, your son got a zero here. Um, and I said to I said, I went when I first read it, I said to myself, I think this is a really, really damn good answer. So I'm like, what the heck? So then then then I go talk to Quinn, my um, my son, and I say, you know, I say,

Speaker 4 hey, what uh were were you serious about this? I said, yeah, I'm serious about it. I, you know, living. It's it's we're in COVID right now, and and it's scary. And so I went back to teachers, hey, this is a really good answer. Give me a break. So so I I I think I mean that is a to me like a profound thing where you know, through everything, through maybe all of our aspirations, we can just dial it back down to the essence. And ultimately, I think at the end of the day, whatever purpose you have, whatever value structure you have, whatever you want to be,

Speaker 4 you could be that Michael Jordan in the future. I'm all good with that. But like at the end of the day, you live to whatever is your fullest thing that you want to do, just just be, okay? Like back to that human being, just live so that you can be a human being and whatever fulfills you. Um, so there's that. And then the last, maybe my final story of the day will be in this uh this uh school of uh life and management here is is um and my uh I you know my my my daughter does so so many wonderful things uh for me too.

Speaker 4 Uh and I respect both of them. I feel like I learned from them all the time. Um very very recently, uh as we're doing a lot of college essays and stuff, and you know, when you do college essays, you reflect a lot, and then uh she told me that, you know, she says, you know, um, my my daddy, um, she still calls me daddy, even though you know she's going to college now. But my my daddy acts silly um and seems like a fool. But he's actually a pretty smart guy. So it to me it's akin to the like Steve Jobs things where he always says,

Speaker 4 you know, stay hungry, stay foolish. So I think we always have to be humble to ourselves. There's always more to learn. And, you know, yeah, stay foolish. Feel like you can experiment, feel like you could continue to grow. We're not done. I'm not done. You're not done, right? We're like, let's keep going with this thing and uh keep making progress every day.

Speaker 1 The best is yet to come. This is literally the youngest will ever be in this moment, and the oldest will ever be in this moment. Isn't that trippy?

Speaker 8 Very trippy.

Speaker 1 And by the way, in the tarot, the fool card is a very powerful card. So, yes, love it. Children are brilliant. I'm telling you, I remember you telling me that story and being like, see, it's because they say you're crazy until they say you're a genius. I'm serious. And simplicity is genius. That was Albert Einstein. That's when I repeat because he's right. And also, let it be.

Speaker 6 Let it be. Exactly. Hello. That's money there.

Speaker 1 We've had these angels, these guys, we've had beings that are telling us the messages. And the question is, what are you listening to? Whose voice are you listening to? That is the whole point of the show. And so I always like to give the audience thank you for all that. I swear. You and I could literally, and we will, we are you and I could talk, we'll come back again. We're just, I really do believe we've been doing this for many lifetimes again. That isn't it to me I the only the reason I believe in my faith, how I don't even know that you can't, I

Speaker 1 I don't like to label things, but there's just certain resonance that I feel with people. There's like there's just knowledge I came into this life with Estevet Lana that I can't explain. And to me, the only logical explanation actually is that I must have brought it in with me from some somewhere else. I don't know. And uh I want to a thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for all the wisdom for the inspiration. You are you are such a reason for me where I I'm so glad I followed my heart and my gut and did the work I'm supposed to do. Really, because there

Speaker 1 are so many reasons I could have not been here. And uh I'm I'm glad that I kept pushing towards that coach path, which is not easy either. That's the thing. Choose your problems. I think often people think, oh, well, that would be that would be you know, more money, more problems. We've heard that, but the truth is there's always gonna be an issue. If you're in the corporate world, you're gonna have certain problems. If you're in the entrepreneurial world and work for yourself, you're gonna have problems. If you're an artist, you're Have problems if you're a parent, but it's your perspective of it all that is

Speaker 1 the higher realm of all of that. And I think everything could be a gift. So as we wrap, here's the gift I want to leave the audience. I always like to give some homework a tool. Something that I teach in my classes often is when you end a meeting or a coaching session, and we would do this, you can tell the audience if I'm telling the truth. I always like to ask for people's main takeaways. And I want the audience to consider right now what is first of all your main takeaway? There's so much. This is one of this is gonna be the longest episode that

Speaker 1 I've done. And I'm also being mindful of the time, but I really want to land it with I want you to ask yourself right now, just pause for a moment. In fact, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna pause for a moment. And Patrick, I want you, because we're gonna wrap it up in old school coaching style. And I'm gonna go to the bathroom one more time because I want to be more comfortable in my body. I want to ask you, the audience, and also you, Patrick, what is your takeaway from today's conversation as we wrap? And I want to know what feedback do you have

Speaker 1 for me around this show? And I think it'd be fun to do live because I want the audience to also hear how you give feedback and I want it, I want it live. I've been waiting for this. So now I'm gonna pause and give you a moment to think about that as I return. Okay. Cool. All right. I had to do that because I don't want to rush. And the life mantra that I very much live by is I am exactly perfectly on time.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's like, where are we going? So now, oh my gosh, I feel there's a Russian saying that says in Russian.

Speaker 1 Now I'm like, oh, I'm more present. So again, audience, take a pause, maybe pause it. Ask yourself, what is your takeaway from today? The reason is a really great thing to ask at the end of a meeting, also, if you're out there in the corporate world, is A, if you have people share their takeaways, you will know what's landing with people, which is very helpful because then you can figure out how to best plan another meeting and also keep your meetings shorter. That's just another film. Just like make your meetings a little shorter, give people a break to go use the restroom before a back-to-back meeting.

Speaker 1 Um, and also it's just helpful for me. Like right now, I have my own thoughts and things in my mind, and it's so helpful. Uh, I don't honestly, I give a lot more feedback than I get. So now I have you, I have uh a master here, I have someone I admire. Uh, I what would love to know what is your takeaway from our conversation, and what feedback, if any, do you have for me around this experience of podcasting or really anything in general else that you want to add before we wrap up?

Speaker 4 Um, I mean, my my closing thoughts would be um things that I shared shared before, which is number one, as I tell my kids, uh always bet on yourself. You know, always bet on yourself. And in order to bet on yourself, you need to know that you are human, that you're not perfect, you don't need to be perfect to be excellent, or you don't need to be perfect to be fulfilled. But always best bet on yourself and knowing yourself more, you'll be able to bet on yourself more. So that's that whole idea of listening to your self-introspection. And at the end of the day, you have

Speaker 4 the agency to do whatever you dream of. If you dream it, you'll become it. And never stop, as I shared before, just don't stop, just keep on going. We've had so many stories today that both from Sweatlana and from myself that we did not stop, we just kept going. And ultimately, to me, there is no finish line in this thing. So make every moment, make it a moment that matters. And at the end of the day, you know, in our physical form, in terms of our life here, hopefully, in that last final day we have here on earth, we will be content and happy. Um that

Speaker 4 we've lived well, so we can die well in our physical form, but our spirit will live on, and all the impact that you've had will continue on. There is no finish line in this, it's just different phases of being who you are. Um, so those are my kind of final thoughts on that. Um, should I share my feedback on you now?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I want to hear it.

Speaker 4 I want to hear it.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. That is so beautiful. And again, for the listener, just notice what that feels like to hear. I know for me when I listen to Patrick, I always feel it literally feels like I'm listening to someone's heart. And that feels nice. That's it. That's the simplest way I can say it. Is that I'm not against the mind. I am a very intellectual person too. I love philosophy. I'm a mathematician, uh, I'm an astronomer. I'm I'm all the things, but at the end of the day, being human, I hear I hear you typing. I love it so funny. Taking notes. Keep it on the

Speaker 1 pod. Oh, it's great. Do your thing. It's great. I love it because I'm the same way, right? But just I I appreciate knowledge, but I don't think it's more knowledge that we need in the world right now. I think we have more than enough knowledge. I think what we need more of is just the reminder, which I hope you're getting today, that in order to do the doing, you gotta be the being. And the the together that is the the kind of the holy trinity, the way I see it is there's me, there's you, and then there's us. There's the the the the being of who

Speaker 1 we are when we come to with other people, and we can actually listen to each other, we can be present. We we're not thinking already about what am I gonna say next or uh oh, I did that, right? Just catch yourself, bring yourself back. And if you notice yourself distracted or interrupting, it's okay. Try again, own it, right? I think it's that self-compassion, it's that loop, it's that when you notice that you're doing something that you don't exactly love, like, oh, I'm being human again, that's okay. But now let's move forward. What if this is happening for you versus to you? And I know how much

Speaker 1 that could suck to hear when things are really hard. And trust me, when I was sitting here and I couldn't move and I lost rad and I felt like my body was on fire, uh, it did not feel that good, but I knew in my bones at that point that it must be happening for me. And I'm telling you, thank you. Thank you to Rad. Thank you to my leg shutting down, thank you to God, thank you to everything for happening that way. Because right now, what I got through this, the gift of the slowdown, the gift is I wish everyone on earth feels what I

Speaker 1 feel every single step I take, because every step I take is a miracle. Because when you lose your ability to walk and then you get it back, truly, that was the lesson. I feel like I needed to do this to slow myself down, and I'm only 39, and I say only because I also hear people going, Oh, I'm so old. It's like you're also the youngest you've ever been. And so it's just a perspective. And I've chosen to see it that way. I chose that, and I could have chosen a different choice, and it's okay. So wherever you are, just remember you get to choose your

Speaker 1 choice, and I'd love some feedback. Please patch up.

Speaker 4 Uh my my feedback uh for you would be I think you're a wonderful person. Um I think I think uh it is a blessing that you are here. It's a blessing of uh what you do is a blessing for the world, for the audience and all your all your listeners. Um because I think when when when you hear what uh Svetlana talks about, I mean she is opening up her heart, opening up all her experiences so that you all can benefit from it. You can kind of learn from it, um, absorb it, and ultimately uh take some nuggets so that you you um can find that

Speaker 4 sense of fulfillment to find out who you are and ultimately grow. So I think that is exceptional. Um and hopefully through you know this experience uh and all the other you know podcasts that she you uh that you've done, Switzlana, that you know people come to appreciate that um and see that. And and every day is a new day, so you'll have new journeys, new experiences that will help enrich others moving forward. So you know basically I thank you for everything that you've done. Thank you for everything that uh uh you've done for me too in the past, and I appreciate the time today with you.

Speaker 4 Um it's it's been a blast, had fun, very grateful.

Speaker 1 Thank you. That was really nice to hear. Um yeah, I I asked my mom the other day, what do you like about me? That's a funny question. But my mom isn't my mom is amazing, but she's not the most vulnerable person, we'll say that hasn't been her strength, you know. She's more tough as a lot of us are from my culture. I feel like Russ, uh not Moldova, but Eastern Europe and China, similar in terms of culture, sometimes very like hard on their kids. Like I was supposed to. I mean, from my at least my friends, because you said your family is Chinese, right? Heritage, yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. So Russian and Chinese, like there's a whole thing, right? It's very similar. It's like very smart, very well educated, very like you gotta do well in school, doctor, lawyer, like that whole thing is part of how I grew up, and I appreciate it. I appreciate the toughness, but the gentleness is what I was needing more of. And so it was so sweet. I said, Mom, what do you like about me? And at first she was like, What are you? And I'm like, just tell me, can you just I had to teach my parents, by the way, when I was 15 to say I love you

Speaker 1 because I came home from school and I would just see that my American friend's parents were like saying, Oh, sweetie, like good job, you gotta see on your test. And I'd come home, and my uh Eastern European father, when I showed him I got a hundred, would go, Oh, why you not get 105? And I never go, because you know, so and I I I tried to explain how damaging that was. It's a joke now. The point is, she says she calms, she takes a deep breath, and she goes, I really like and love that you have a soul. And apparently, and and I was like,

Speaker 1 What does that mean? She's like, It's a really huge thing. Like, I said, What does that mean for you? And finally we drill down, and she said, I feel like you care. And I was like, I really do, and thank you for seeing that because I do, I really care about people. I I think I've cared about too much sometimes. I'm working on caring a little less sometimes, uh, and caring for me, right? We all have to take care, put your life mask on first, and then you can help others. So I I appreciate how much you care also. I can feel it, and I'm very

Speaker 1 grateful uh that our orbits intersected and we got the chance to collaborate. And is there anything else that you feel you want to share or say to feel complete before we wrap it?

Speaker 4 Um

Speaker 4 I guess my last uh last statement would be uh we're all we're all very, very busy. Um and hopefully through this conversation that we we had today, it it gives you uh if if you got through the whole conversation, that's amazing too. This is a long conversation. If you got through this, maybe there's some pearl of uh uh reward at the very end.

Speaker 7 This is the pearl.

Speaker 2 This may be the pearl, but

Speaker 2 again, at the beginning of the show, I said I am I I don't give wisdom, you know, for sure.

Speaker 4 So at the bar. Um I'd I'd say in in the chaos of life that we have, or the busyness, or maybe say in a positive way, in the richness of life that we have, I think it's very important to slow it down, to reflect, and to ultimately simplify. And when you're able to simplify, we talked about prior prioritizing, knowing your values, knowing your purpose. But if you're able to simplify your life a bit, focus on what really matters. When you're able to get to that simplification of life, I think what really matters will bubble up, and you'll be able to see it more. And again, like

Speaker 4 I shared before, leave some room for God's grace, leave some room for your own grace, for your own compassion for yourself, um, for your own well-being. Um and let's go do it. I wish everyone a happy life.

Speaker 1 I mean, I got nothing to add. I I want you to have the last word. Thank you so much. And even though I said that and that was the last word.